By Fazal Amin Beg
Twenty two years ago, before leaving for China to pursue my first anthropological fieldwork on the Kinship and Marriage System in the Wakhi Tajik Society, I thought to also venture in the field of biographic interviews of different people starting from Hunza valley.
On July 16, 2000, when the first year of the new millennium was in the middle, I opted for and got an opportunity to meet with late Madam Shams-un Nihar , the last Rani of the former Hunza State and wife of late Mir Muhammad Jamal Khan to get a long seating with her and explore her life stories from her birth to childhood, youth and matrimonial life, becoming the Rani of Hunza and her life on move with her late husband while traveling out of Hunza State to India, Pakistan , middle East and Europe. Late Rani was the first person from whom I began my mission of the biographic interviews based on a detailed interview schedule in videography.
Although, I was supposed to meet her again and get more and more indepth discussion with her but I could not do so apparently due to my professional engagements.However, I could manage to meet her again but I thought due to me there must not be more disabling environment for her inside the palace due to me. it is noteworthy that Mir Ghazanfar Ali Khan, the older son of late Rani Shams-un Nihar and Mir Muhammad Jamal Khan, impeded in the middle and was not in favor to conduct any recorded interview with her due to his pessimistic political lens who might not trusted me and might felt any kind of risks despite the fact we are relatives together. He thus discouraged me to avoid recording her interview. Nonetheless, I managed to do it effectively as a week earlier I had already got an appointment from the late Rani by meeting herself in person and she had given her kind consent and was happy to share her life experiences with me.
The interview continued for over one hour and forty minutes where she so delightedly shared different aspects of her life. She so enthusiastically shared the memories of her international travels with her late husband invited annually (since 1948) by His Royal Highness, Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III and in the aftermath by the present Imam of the time, His Highness, Prince Karim Aga Khan IV. In addition, she informally discussed her meetings with different heads of the States including Pakistan by looking at the pictures and refreshing her memories of those meetings such as Fatima Jinah, a dedicated ister of Muhammad Ali Jinah, the founder of Pakistan. Moreover, she so friendly and openly narrated various dimensions of history and the situations prevailed in Hunza and Nagar States, the peoples conditions, the societal development, political transformation, and the like.
It should be noted that, unlike the present didgital era of development and technology, there was no digital camera tradition in the region and I had to depend on the VHS cameras of Haqaqat Ali of Ghulkin Hunza. Conversely, I myself had no financial capacity to buy such level of video technologies in field research as I was engaged with my M. Phil field studies, too, but they were based on notetaking as well as audio recordings.
I’m thus going to share the interview translation here so that those who cannot understand Urdu wil be able to read the English translation presented here onward.
Interview of Late Madam Shams-un Nihar , the Last Rani of the former Hunza State
Interviewer: Fazal Amin Beg (FAB) Interviewee: Madam Shams-un Nihar (MSN)
Date of Interview: July 16, 2000 Venue: Karimabad Palace
This interview discussion has been published on EaglesWorld Channel and can be watched on the following link:
FAB: It is the 16th day of July, 2000. We have come from Gulmit (Upper Hunza) to Karimabad (Central Hunza) in order to interview Grandma (Mrs. Jamal Khan, the last and respected Rani (queen) of the former Hunza State) so that to compile her biography. In the given [short] period of time, we will try our level best to get answers for the questions that would be asked now.
Madam! First and foremost, would you like tell us that when you were born? And with what sentiments and emotions your family might have received your birth? You might know something through your parents.
MSN: Yea, I know some but I don’t know much. In the beginning, after my birth, I lived with my parents in Nager Proper. And when I was 14 year old, I got married. After my marriage, how many years have passed, you might calculate it better (to get my age).
FAB: Hm. we were asking this question form Mir Ghazanfar Ali Khan down in the Darbar Hotel (Karimabad); and he is of the opinion that you’re above 75.
MSN: Perhaps, it could be 75.
FAB: Would you like to tell us your name?
MSN: Why not, my name is Shams un-Nihar.
FAB: Very nice. After your birth, you might have got Ushams, the fictive/foster relatives to rear or bring up an infant/child. Was it so? If yes, who were they?
MSN: Almost for one year, I have been breastfed by my mother. Afterwards, according to our customs in Hunza and Nagar, as you know, the Ushams were brought in the house. Ushams were those who were from the noble families. My Usham was Wazir Teyfur (and family) who has now died.
FAB: Right, you were brought up in Wazir Teyfur’s house; and they were your Usham?
MSN: Yes, of course. He was my foster relative; and his son’s wife has fed me the milk.
FAB: Has Wazir Teyfur any son?
MSN: Yea, his name was Malik Shah.
FAB: In your childhood, had you any girl friend who used to play and joke with you?
MSN: Yea, I had many girl friends.
FAB: Would you like to describe about them?
MSN: With me were the daughters of our Ushams, daughters of our relatives and servants. I was playing normally with our servants’ daughters.
FAB: The children, anywhere, usually obedient both disobedient. Could you related one or two such event(s) of mildness and roughness for which you were popular in your childhood?
MSN: Every child has got disobedient behavior but parents and others educate them the manners at home to do this thing and don’t do that; talk to others in polite way; raise your head and talk to others then others will also respond you in good manner.
FAB: Well! Had you ever though when you were young before your engagement that you would become the queen of Hunza?
MSN: No. hehehe (laughter). When I was 14, my parents married me. At that time, I was not mature enough to know that there could also be my marriage.
FAB: Did your parents ever ask or share with you that your were being married in Hunza?
MSN: No, but I knew it. It is not in our customs that in the lifetime of parents, girls should be asked for this purpose. Rather asking one’s daughter was considered bad. Whatsoever the parents thought was appropriate, we (daughters) had to accept and regard it.
FAB: Hunza and Nager were two separate princely states and which were often rival to each other. When the proposal for engagement came from Hunza, what would have been your and your parents’ response/reaction?
FAB: It has to be noted that from the beginning, as you know, that many families in Hunza are from Nagar; and many families in Nagar are from Hunza (here lies the kinship relations).
FAB: Were marriages taking place?
MSN: Of course, marriages were taking place among the peoples of both these states. But later, because of rivalry and fighting between Hunza and Nager, the British government banned marriage relationship between these peoples. Therefore, during my marriage, the rulers of these states took special permission from the Viceroy of India. Mir of Hunza, Nazim Khan, and my father signed and submitted a written agreement to the Viceroy assuring that both states won’t fight together in the future. Thus, our marriage took place and marriage relationship was restored.
FAB: Well. Did you also share the news of your engagement with your girl friends?
MSN: No, I didn’t share. All that were by my parents.
FAB: Anyway, you might have shared this news with your girl friends and they must have teased you or joked with you. Isn’t?
MSN: They (girl friends) were joking and teasing me that the people in Hunza are Ismailis and we are Shias in Nagar. So how could get married and how would you manage. However, one thing is significant to share regarding my marriage that my father’s mother was from Hunza. She was daughter of Shah Gazanfar (s/o Silum Khan- III). Her name was Zeb un-Nisa. So this relationship existed there already.
FAB: How many brothers had your father?
MSN: My father was the youngest one among his brothers. Three/four brothers were elder than him. Because of their mutual fighting, two brothers were killed.
FAB: Who killed them?
MSN: They had a step-brother. Some people instigated him that time—that when he will grow up, he will be harmful to you. It is better, therefore, to kill him because killing was not a strange thing at that time. The name of one brother was Babar and the other had Harithum. You might know the place, called Yal, a sliding area in Ghulmet (Nager), opposite Hindi (in Hunza). In Ghulmet, he had his property/land. He was pretentiously invited for playing polo; and when he came to Yal, there he was killed. At that time, my father was young. Both, my father and Wazir Hamayun (of Hunza) fled to Gilgit in order to bring the British forces (to the valley); and they succeeded in doing so (in 1891). Then there became peace in the region (valley).
FAB: When were the British forces brought?
MSN: During the period of the Maharaja, the British were here who ruled for a long time.
FAB: Okay. Again I’m coming towards your marriage. Besides invitees from the states of Hunza and Nager, guests from outside might have attended your wedding. If so, how many guests had attended the wedding? Could you recall your memoir?
MSN: A lot of guests had come. Our relatives from Chitral to Punyal, and from Yasin to Gilgit. In Gilgit and Nomal, my father had his brothers: Alidad and Kamal. In Gilgit, he has still his family members. When my father became the Mir, ruler, of Nager, the marriages started taking place.
From here (Hunza), my three sisters (-in-law) have got married in Nager. One got married with Babar, a hero of Gilgit-Baltistan, From one side, she happened to be my nan (mother), and from the other side she became a sister-in-law (bhabi) to me—because she was a sister of Mir sahab (Mir Jamal Khan); and daughter of Mir Ghazan Khan. Daughter of Nazim Khan got married with my brother: Raja Muzaffar ud Din, who was a superintendent of the prison (jail) in Gilgit and has died, now. Thus, you can see that bilateral marriages have taken place between these (former) states.
FAB: What kind of gifts were the people bringing in your wedding?
MSN: The people of Nagar brought gifts according to their capacity/strength. There was no compulsion in this regard.
FAB: Anyhow, what sort of stuffs were normally brought?
MSN: The people brought gold that was indigenous—taken processed from the (Hunza) river and processed locally. At that time, besides gold, there were no other things available. However, the people used to bring the gifts by option. If the poor people brought such type of gifts, they were returned. But if a well-off was bringing such presents, they were accepted and their names were recorded so that my father should respond them in the same manner during the marriages in their houses.
FAB: What types of gift were given to the people in return?
MSN: Those who had brought gold were presented gifts according to their wishes and needs, excluding clothes. The gifts included such as flour, butter and sheep etc.
FAB: While coming in Hunza, did you feel any risk lest you would be sent back to Nager? It means, God forbid, there might come up divorce or separation from your conjugal partner?
MSN: It was described that in the old days, there happened divorces. But in our time, there was no such incidence (except for any special case).
FAB:. Approximately how many people had participated in your weeding?
MSN: I don’t know exactly that how many persons were from Hunza. But from Nagar, I guess there were between 200 to 300 people with me in the wedding, apart from the porter-class who carried the luggage and baggage. At that time, there was no road so that the jeeps or vans could run. No one had heard even the names of the vehicles. The stuffs were carried on the back on the horses. At that time, it was a custom that on such occasions when the guests came to Nager from here (Hunza), they were presented gifts according to their levels/classes. The gifts included guns, horses, cloths, chapan and chughas. At that time, there were no radio or TV etc. not only in our country (kingdom) but rather also not available in Pakistan. Likewise, when the guests from Nagar were coming to Hunza, from the bridegroom’s side, such presents were anticipated. It is significant to note that during my wedding, the amount of gifts given to the guests in wedding was more than the amount of dowry given to me by my father.
FAB: From how many social classes, peoples came in your wedding and what were those classes?
MSN: There were three social classes. People of the first class were the headmen and the notables of different villages. The second class was also of the common people; and third in the class were the porters. So, gifts were given to all these classes. Besides, presents were also given to the relatives who participated in the wedding.
FAB: How many traditional band-groups were there in your wedding?
MSN: Six drummers and six flute players: altogether, 12 members. These band group members were also given presents such as garlands and chughas and they were preceding the wedding party from Nager. Here (in Hunza), they were also given gifts.
FAB: For how long your wedding jubilee/entertainment continued?
MSN: You know that Nager is adjacent (to Hunza). Therefore, the wedding party came from Hunza spent only one night in Nager. As per norm the guests from Hunza were honored to dance first (and then the hosts). The next day the guests returned (to Hunza).
FAB: For how long did the musical program continue?
MSN: With the wedding party, it continued only for one day and one night; but with our people (of Hunza), the program continued for couples of days.
FAB: Wow, so fantastic. How many children do you have; and would you like to tell us their names, too?
MSN: I have three sons and six daughters. My old son is Ghazanfar Ali Khan; the middle one is Amin Khan and younger one is Abbas Khan. Among my daughters, the first one is Dur e Shawal, got married with my older brother’s son. The second one is Nilufar who has gone to Gulmit today. Nur Begum, a name of one of our grandmothers, who is also called as Malika, is the third one. Mehr Jamal, shortly named as Marry, is wife of Pir Karam Ali Shah. My youngest daughter is Azra, married to Colonel Sher Khan, a daughter-in-law of Shah Khan, a hero of Gilgit-Baltistan.
FAB: When you got your first son, Ghazanfer Ali Khan then as parents, what were your sentiments and expectations from him being the successor of his father?
MSN: Our son was born during the reign of his grandfather, Mir Ghazan Khan. Ghazanfar was still too young that Mir Ghazan Khan died. At that time, the British [doctor] advised us to feed him [Ghazanfar] the “Tan Milk” of the Glaxos. They were of the opinion that “Mother’s breastfeeding is sometimes not good”. Therefore, we fed him the “Tan Milk”.
FAB: Had Mr. Ghazanfar any foster family?
MSN: No one has breastfed him, although Ayub father of Amjad Ayub was taking care of him.
FAB: What were your expectations from Mr. Ghazanfar that what he would be in the future?
MSN: His granpa, Ghazan Khan, advised that not to send Ghazanfar out for his studies rather provide education to him in our own country. His [Ghazanfar’s] interactions should be more with our peoples; and he should know everything. If he was sent outside, in America or somewhere else, then his habit and behavior would be totally different. He would hate the people and get married outside”. Therefore, we sent him for studies in Punjab; and he studied from Punjab University, Lahore.
FAB: You travelled extensively with your late husband, Mir Muhammad Jamal Khan. Both of you visited different places within Pakistan and abroad. Would you like to share something about your foreign visits/trips?
MSN: Yes, of course. Many times we have been abroad. You know that in the olden times, there was no transportation of airplane up to Gilgit; and there was no road access to the vehicles. Horses were ridden and travels were made up to Kashmir via Astor. During the reign of Maharaja, the travel involved 15 days. When the government changed, the aero plane started coming to Gilgit; and the jeep-road was constructed. Then we went to Rawalpindi, which we saw for the first time. Afterwards, we saw Peshawar and then Karachi.
At that time, Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan was Imam of the time who was living in Karachi. For the first time, we got the opportunity to see him. He asked us: “where would we stay”? The Mir responded: “We have arrived here, now. In Karachi, we haven’t any house of our own. The government would do some arrangement for us, and we’ll stay there”. Hazar Imam, Imam of the time, said: “Stay in my house Moon’s Lodge, in Karachi”. This was the house where Imam was born: i.e., the Aga Khan Tekri. Therefore, we stayed here not only this time, rather in the aftermath, too, whenever we were making our visit to Karachi.
In the old days, there was no road-communication; and the Hindus had their occupation on Gilgit. Therefore, our people fought the war of liberation against the government of Ghansara Sing, and Gilgit was liberated. In the aftermath, in order to annex the region with Pakistan, a telegraph was sent to the Pakistani rulers. But, because of the fear, they (Pakistani authority) did not respond. They stated that this is the region of the Hindus; and if we occupied it by force, the Indian government will react and there will be fighting. The Mirs of Nager and Hunza should intimate us. If they (the Mirs) agree, then we shall have occupation of Gilgit. For 13 days or 15 days or something like this, there was bombardment from Indian side on Gilgit. They claimed that “This was our region; and the people of the Northern Areas, for the sake of Pakistan, snatched this region from us”. Thus, India cried a lot upon this area.
Then from the outside, a telegram was sent. Liaqat Ali Khan, alive at that time, asked the Mirs of Hunza and Nager: “If you accept us (Pakistan), then please come down and give us a written. Otherwise, India is having objection upon it”. The Mirs accepted it and responded to them. They mentioned that “two three conditions are there, which ought to be met. Then we ourselves would manage all states of affairs”.
FAB: Do you know something about those conditions?
MSN: Some of them I know, though I have forgotten some, too. One, when we would require, we’ll select peoples for the military from the Northern Areas—at that time, in Gilgit there was scout or so—you won’t object for raising police and military forces. Second, during the formulation of the foreign policy, the government of the time would take us on board for this purpose. And third, we will go according to our own cultures (norms and values) and customs in the region; and it won’t be so that we’ll have to copy the customs, which are prevalent in the Pakistan or India. Thus, on the basis of such conditions, the regions [in the Northern Areas] were annexed with Pakistan. Then Liaquat Ali Khan, the then Prime Minister, invited Mirs of Nagar and Hunza to Karachi for a crucial meeting and both of them attended it. After this meeting, Sardar Alam Khan was then sent as the first Political Agent to Gilgit after the annexation.
FAB: OK. Now, please share with us your international travels/visits that you made with the late Mir. How many times did you go to Paris (France) and other places?
After the visits in Karachi, Imam of the time, Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah, Aga Khan invited the Mir of Hunza. His Royal Highness said: “Come to Paris and be my guest there. You’ll be pleased to see the new areas”. The Mir accepted this invitation. Imam of the time further added: “I have also my house in Egypt besides Paris. It is up to you, wherever you like”. The Mir preferred to see first Paris and London. Thus, Hazar Imam invited us to Paris.
In 1948, after existence of Pakistan, for the first time (in our life), we went to Paris. Hazir Imam had employed Agha Majeed Khan–a relative of the Imam and heading the Ismailis in Bombay— with us from Karachi in order to guide us and mange the states of affairs. India. Therefore, he was with us in the aero plane.
After departure from Karachi, the next day at midnight (12:00 AM), we arrived in Paris. When we were descending from the aero plane, a big car came near the stairs. We astonished that whose car it could be? When we descended from the aero plane, Imam Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan-III had very kindly come personally to receive and take us from the airport; and we were not aware of it. Imam had put on a white shirt, tie and a top hat. A bus was also standing at the airport. The Mir and I greeted the Imam and kissed his hand. Hazar Imam was very happy and he put his hand (of affection) upon me and the Mir.
The Mir of Hunza said to Imam: “Oh Imam! You have bothered yourself in coming here in the dark night and we are guilty before you”. Imam replied: “No mention. It an obligation upon me because you are my guests; and I ought to come here”.
In the meanwhile, the news reporters also reached there. They asked Hazar Imam that for whom the Imam had come himself to the airport in having well dressed? Imam replied: “No one bigger than these are my guests”. He further added that they are like my special children. Then in the company of Imam, we left the airport. Hazar Imam told us: “arrangement of your stay has been made; and my son, Prince Sadr ud Din will take care of you”. Then he left from there. Thus, for 21 days, we were guests of the Imam.
FAB: What was the month of your visit, do you remember?
MSN:It was probably December or January and we spent 21 days there. Then the Imam stated: “You saw this place and spent very nice time with me. Now, you go and also visit London”. But for the visit of many other cities, we needed more time.
At that time, the Imam was in Aswan. Not Aswan rather what was the name, near the sea in Paris? There is a place, what was the name, I forgot. There is his house. He said to us, “go from here to see London”. Therefore, we went to London. Imam directed his secretary to give the letter [of Imam to the concerned authority in London] and tell them that we were the guests of him and make it possible to meet the Queen.
Imam of the time had advised Mata Salamat (Imam’s Wife) to accompany and guide us all the way as we were alien and knew nothing. Imam said: “I am now old and get trouble in walking”.
Imam advised Prince Sadr ud Din Aga Khan to show us Paris. But for other places, his secretary and his wife had accompanied us. Therefore, when we were in London, Mata Salamat had a phone call to the Queen. Consequently, we were intimated to meet the Queen in two or three days in the Buckingham Palace. Then, we were taken to the Queen and we met her. The Queen’s mother was alive at that time; while the Queen was going to be the successor of her father. Arrangement of the event’s celebration was in progress. After a short meeting with the Queen, we returned to our hotel. After spending eight days in London, we came back to Paris. We stayed for one week in Paris and then went to Kant, yea, Kant. Then from Kant, we returned to Karachi.
Hazar Imam advised us that we saw London and Paris; but when we shall visit him again next year, we would also be shown the Muslim countries such as Egypt, Turkey, Iran and other.
Next year, we went again and saw many places. This time, Imam of the time appointed the Mir of Hunza as the President for the Ismailis of Hunza and Central Asia; and advised him to convey the Imam’s directives to all the community. He directed the Mir to visit him every year looking at the suitable month, either in September or in December. The Mir requested that it was very cold in our country; therefore, if possible, we should visit the Iman in December. Hazar Imam laughed and said: “You know that you have cold country; and for this purpose, you will travel in December to buy warm clothes and warm shoes from here; and won’t like to come in September”. The Mir stated: “No, we’ll also come in September. Only for a purpose that in our country, the weather is nice in September; while in Pakistan, it is hot. Therefore, we prefer to travel abroad either in December or January”. Hazar Imam laughed and said: “Doesn’t matter, you can come sometimes in September and sometimes in December”. Therefore, in each December, we used to visit the Imam of the time.
Afterwards, the Imam recommended us to also visit Rome, which is near Kant, in Italy. Therefore, Imam sent his secretary with us; and we went to Italy and saw this country. Sardinia was not settled at that time rather was settled by the present Imam, Karim Aga Khan.
Besides, Prince Ali S. Khan also gave us time and showed us different places. We went to London many times. We used to visit Paris every year. There (in Paris) was a hotel with our name/associated to us. The manager of the hotel used to say: “Although many people come and go to this hotel; but I have dedicated it, written with your name”. The Mir was saying” “it is not our hotel [in legal terms]; but, because we stay here when we come to Paris. From this perspective, we can cay say, yes , it is ours”.
Once, Hazar Imam was in Egypt and he invited us there. We then went to Egypt, which is at a distance of couples of hours—that is, Aswan. Here Hazar Imam said: “I like this place. I have chosen it; and have built a house here [in Aswan]”. The Iman had made the house in the name of his wife, Mata Salamat Ume Habiba. The Imam [Sir Sultan Muhamamd Shah], at that time, was constructing his graveyard here, too.
When Imam Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan passed way, we went to attend his funeral rites. The Imam had written in his will that wherever he’ll pass away, his corpse shall be brought to Egypt and buried there. All the Ismaili leaders shall go and attend his funeral rites. In order to carry his dead body towards [the grave], the Iman had described that his elder son [Prince Ali Khan] might be angry with him as he was not given [the throne of] the Imamat. Rather the Imamat was given to his grandson, [Shah] Karim Aga Khan. Therefore, the Imam, Aga Khan III, in his will had advised if Prince Ali Khan attends his funeral ritual, it would be a pleasure; but if he didn’t attend, it is his wish. He had nominated the present Imam, Prince Karim Aga Khan and his younger son, Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan to carry his corpse (to the front side). And to the back side [of the corpse], the Imam had nominated the names of the Mir of Hunza and Agha Khalili, a maternal relative of the Imam and representing the Ismaili community in Iran. For this reason, the Mir was called and I was also accompanying him. Many other peoples had also come there.
The people of Egypt, the police and others, were standing and were very nicely managing the grand funeral ceremony. From the entire world such as Iran, Kuwait, Africa and other regions people attended this funeral gathering. We spent some days in Mata Salamat’s house in Aswan. Later on, we came to Egypt and then returned to Pakistan.
In the aftermath, there was a program of the accession day to the Imamat of the present Imam, Shah Karim Al-Hussaini, Aga Khan IV; and we went to attend it in Karachi in July 1958, Then the Ismaili community of Bombay also invited us, and we also visited them. Everywhere we did go including Africa.
FAB: How many trips were there in a year?
MSN: Twice: once in September and then in December.
FAB: Could you cover many countries in your trip once you were out?
MSN: Yes, of course. We used to go abroad by getting visa. The Mir liked Iran very much because he was very fluent in Farsi/Persian. We were staying in Iran for a longer time; also in Turkey as well as in Beirut. Once we also visited Greece. Wherever we planned to go, we were supposed to intimate the Ismaili leaders on phone; and they themselves were coming to the airport along with their cars; and making all the arrangements in hotels and showing us the important venues.
FAB: Besides the aforementioned places, which countries of Europe did you go? Did you also visit Germany?
MSN: Yes, of course. Many times we did go to Germany. There are not that much considerable Ismailis in this country rather all are Germans. Imam Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah had an opinion that among other places, Germany was a nice and sustainable country, and we must go to see this place. Therefore, we did go to Germany. There was a German chap [name forgotten] who had come to Hunza twice for hunting purpose; and the Mir and he got friendship. After the first visit, this man then invited us to Germany where we were his guests. We visited Frankfurt, Munich, Cologne, Berlin and other places of this country and spent 15 days each in different places. This gentleman has now died, although, he has got two sons. On the way back, once we also went to see Jerusalem, Israel, via Jordan. We were told that Israel’s border was just attached with. Some government officials intimated us that if we wanted to go to Jerusalem we can, as we had got the diplomatic passport. But our driver was not allowed; thus, we were given option to drive the car ourselves. But the Mir decided not to go because we could not drive the car ourselves (as we were alien).
FAB: In the period of the present Imam, Shah Karim Al-Hussaini Aga Khan you might have had many visits, too?
MSN: Yes, of course. We had gone to Paris especially on the occasion of his [Imam’s] marriage, Peoples from different parts of the world had brought very nice gifts to Hazar Imam. From Kuwait and Bahrain, people had brought the sea-pearls so that to sprinkle them on the Imam. In this connection, some of disciples had the opinion that they themselves would sprinkle the pearls on the Imam when he’ll return from the wedlock. But there were some reservations from other community leaders. However, then there came up a consensus/proposal that the sister of Hazar Imam would sprinkle the pearls on him. But it was Imam’s greatness, indeed, that he asked me: “ You do it”. From Bombay, there was musical group who played music and danced for couples of days. From Iran, Pakistan and other places, the Ismalils had come and they presented their gifts.
From Hunza, the Mir and I, had gone in emgency. Our country/region, Hunza, was very backward. So in such circumstances, what could we present in the honor of the Imam: as a last option, a traditional woolen chugha and a cap. That’s all, nothing beyond this; and nothing came in mind what to do? In the meanwhile, the Mir of Hunza told me to give him my golden garland so that to present it to Hazar Imam on behalf of the Ismaili community of Hunza and Central Asia. Whatsoever I had, I gave to the Mir and he put it in a plate and presented to the honor of Hazar Imam. He like it very much because that was a local manufactured, a minor thing hanged in the neck.
FAB: What advice Imams of the time used to give to you when you returned from your foreign trips/visits?
MSN: We were advised to open schools. “No one ought to be non-literate, and they should be talented. Women have worse condition there, and they need to be given education and they need to be capable to get better employment”. Along with this, the Mir was also mentioning that our region also lacks hospital. Although, on behalf of the government, there is a small staff but there is absence of the required facilities. Sometimes medicines are available in the hospital and sometime not; and people die because of such difficulties. The Imam of the time was giving written directives to Agha Majeed Khan to provide financial resources for these issues.
MSN: You might have considerably acted upon those advice by opening schools or doing other things. Is it?
MSN: In previous time, there was no school for girls. The schools were established here (in Hunza) after the Diamond Jubilee Celebration of the Imam of the time, Aga Khan III, in Bombay. In this celebration, Imam was weighed in diamond and on that money schools were opened in different parts of the world for the Ismaili community. In order to deal and manage the educational affairs, on behalf of the Hunza State, the Mir appointed Qudrat Ullah Baig as his representative and sent him to Bombay because in the entire Hunza, there was no school. On the monetary support of the Diamond Jubilee, the schools were then established in Hunza.
FAB: To what level you yourself have studied, Madam? And who was teaching you?
MSN: In our time, there was no college or school. In my context, the teacher used to come to our house and taught me. He was Mola Madad, a local of Nager who was a kind of personal Khalifa of our family. Sometimes, he taught me Arabic, sometimes Farsi and sometimes Urdu. After my marriage, Master Sultan Ali Samarqand was coming to our house and teaching me. There were also some British [women], they were brought here in Karimabad in order to teach our children. I also learnt from them. Besides, the Mir brought Mr. Mambi (who has now died) to teach Ghazanfar. And Mambi’s wife stayed in our house for five years. I also got education from her. That is all, I have got education. It is so so … hehehehe (laughter).
FAB: Wonderful. Even though, you haven’t gone through the formal school (formal education system), but the competency/talent you have got is marvelous, indeed.
MSN: No mention, no competency I have got. Brother! But one thing is to mention here that the competency doesn’t come in the school. Rather as it is said that the first school of a child is his/her mother’s lap, and the house environment. That gives right direction. Those who have studied in the schools could be impolite and crude. They won’t respect their parents, neither their brother, nor any respectable or notables of their country. Very arrogantly such children (of formal education) would say: “we are educated, we are more capable, and you don’t know the language(s)”.
FAB: You’re right. Well. How many languages do you know, madam?
MSN: Well! All languages spoken in Hunza … hehehehe (laughter). For instance, Shina, the language of our region: languages of Hunza and Nagar.
FAB: Do you also know the Wakhi language?
MSN: Why not. It is a language of our region and I know it and can speak. But I don’t know Chitrali [Khowar]. I also know Urdu, as I do speak with you. One thing is significant to note that in our times, women/girls education was considered strange. It was rejected. “What is the need to giving education to the girls? They are not supposed to get any employment. They are not supposed to become the khalifa or the imam. It was thought: “ If the boys get some education, it is okay”. But, these days, year by year, there is coming up development. Now, the women have got more enthusiasm for getting education than men.
In our country [region], it is very commonly said that we have become educated. The people say many other things as well. But in my view, it may not be so. Of course, people become educated, but for learning the languages. Although, they speak the language(s) fluently but the civility and manners are subject to the home-environment. For instance, in the house, from the childhood, the parents and elders educate/teach the children the manner of taking/eating food to becoming mature; and that so and so are elder than you and you have to respect them, greet them. In contrast, if the children are taught at home not to respect the elders and not to care for the ethical manners then such negative teachings remain in their minds. So, such directives not necessarily come from getting education [in school]. These days, if a respected family has got no money, s/he will never teach her/his children. On the other, if a poor family has got money s/he can given higher education to her/his family. But there won’t be civility. Civility is something and education another.
FAB: You mentioned that in the previous time, female education was considered strange. But how would you view female education in the present context?
MSN: Although, presently the girls are getting education and engaged with good services/employment, but it is also incumbent upon them to respect their elders, and do not stay away from their customs and traditions [norms and values. It is not good to leave out one’s cultural norms and values, at once. And these do not come from getting formal education (in the schools). From getting education, one can definitely get employment, and the capability also comes; but the refinement and civility (tehzeeb) do not come up.
FAB: Once again, I would like to take you back to your travels. During your travels, which area did you enjoy and like more?
MSN: I enjoyed all travels. However, among the Muslim countries, I liked Egypt and Turkey the most. Among the other places, I preferred London, because in London, we could meet a lot of our own people [from the Sub-Continent]. Here we cannot feel that we are in an alien country. In any shop we entered, we met with the Muslims and Hindus. Wherever we have been in London, we came across Muslims and Hindus. Neither we got trouble in speaking the language nor we came across with putting on the dresses. We were relax to wear dresses of our own countries and travelled. These people [Muslim and Hindu] in London love each other. When we were telling any Hindu that we were Muslims, they gave a great respect to us. The peoples in London are very nice, indeed.
FAB: Alright. In our history of Hunza, we see that the former political system (Mirdom) gets transformed during the period of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, the then Prime Minister of Pakistan. When the previous system came to an end, what was the reaction of you people? What were your feelings, thoughts, emotions? The Mir and you must have talked about it that what strategies should be then taken to adjust yourself within the new political framework. Would you like to share something, if possible as you spent a lot of time with the Mir?
MSN: You know better the comments of the people who were so happy that the Mirdom (Chieftainship/Kingdom) ended; and now democracy has come. “We will choose very carefully and come up with leaders from different areas”, they said. You know better the sentiments of the peoples.
FAB: Yea, you’re right. The sentiments of the peoples on the one hand; but what I want to say is what were your feelings, your thoughts that the previous political system transformed into another? So, remaining within the new system, how would you spend your lives?
MSN: We did not feel it [much]. Various and strange type of suggestions were given to the Mir that you should merge the state; you yourself should become the leader; do this and do that. But the Mir said: “No, we have also born in this country [region]. Doesn’t matter. Our life and death is with these peoples. We were not suppressing/forcing them or their forefathers”. However, those people who were with us [supporters] felt it a lot. They said that the state was merged, now what should be done? They protested. But the Mir did not become angry. Rather he made it clear that “It was to happen. The giant kingdoms and empires got abolished and was replaced by the democracy. While Hunza was a tiny place and all of us are brethren to each other here. If the people did not like the previous system, doesn’t matter: it is good”.
In the meanwhile, Indian authorities protested on radio and TV that Pakistan has no right upon these areas. Hunza, Gilgit and Nager belong to India; and passed strange comments. But the Mir did not respond to any of them.
We need to understand that here in Hunza, we are brothers to each other; and we are not displeased with anyone. I would like to add that election is a race in which after every five or three years, one stands [to be elected] and tries to get the opinion of the peoples, if they like him/her. But when the peoples are displeased, they get him/her out.
By the blessings of God, so far we are doing well. Our concern/relationship is with the peoples. We have been sharing in the misery and joy of the peoples. For instance, in any wedding, when we are invited, we do attend it by considering them as our brothers. Likewise, when there is any death, we also go in the concerned houses to pay our respect and condolence. We never feel [negative]. We feel that the peoples are ours and we are theirs.
FAB: How do you view the development in Hunza as compared to the previous period?
MSN: Well, now the development has come in Hunza. shops and hotels have been constructed. The tourists come and the local community benefits from them. It is good that peoples’ interaction has increased. For the girls, there was no arrangement of education. Now schools have been established and the girls want to have employment/service. It sounds that some people have the idea that there is no need of land for cultivation. If money comes in hand, hotels should be constructed and no need of land for the graves. It is good, if peoples get relief and peace, it is a source of happiness for us, too. One thing is important to envision and think seriously that in the future, after sometimes, there may not be land even for the graveyards.
FAB: How do you see the flow of tourists during the time of the Hunza State and after its abolition?. What kind of impact do you see on the Hunza valley and the local communities?
MSN: Previously, very low number of foreigners/tourists used to come. There was no jeep road. There was little interaction of peoples. Aero plane was also not available. In rare cases, if there was flight operation, very few foreigners were coming. Now a day, from the entire world, the tourists/foreigners are coming.
The influx of tourists here is in good. When they come, our peoples benefit. The poor people at least sell their apricots and earn money. Some skilled women sell their handicrafts and earn money. On need-basis, people also get some medicines. Therefore, it is good if the tourists come to our area.
FAB: Although, when tourists come here, the local community benefits from them economically. Do you think that besides economic benefits, there could also be any negative impact on the community?
MSN: The tourists do not come to stay here permanently. Rather they come here for couples of days and go back after visiting the area. Therefore, there is benefit and not loss for our community.
FAB: You spent a lot of time with the Mir and one question I would like to ask about him, if you wish to respond. What was the specific characteristic of the Mir that you liked the most?
MSN: The Mir had his interaction with all categories of peoples. He did not favor the poor-rich divide. Whosoever visited the Mir, he met them frankly and happily. Those who came to him empty-handed, he felt it and helped them whole-heartedly. The Mir used to say: “They were the helpless/needy; that is why they had come to me”. There were even some people who suggesting the Mir: why did you give him/her that much land? Why did you do this and that for them? But the Mir was telling: “Look! God is the Giver. The poor should not be made dependent”.
We had also huge taxes. When a woman was visiting the Mir and saying that “We are poor, and we haven’t got anything to pay to you in taxes”, the Mir was telling the tax collectors [called trangpas]: “Exempt and don’t take the taxes from so and so person(s)”. He was very kind to all subjects.
If anyone came to the Mir after a quarrel with someone, he used to advise the disputants to get reconciliation themselves or through the State’s mechanism [which was down to the grassroots level]. If there did not come up reconciliation or consensus among the disputants, he was giving directives to give them penalty according to the set customs. But the Mir himself was not receiving the penalty. If the penalty, for instance, were brought to him, he was not receiving it but rather returning it to the concerned person(s).
FAB: In contrast to this kind behavior, what was the characteristic of the Mir that you did not like that much?
MSN: Sometimes, when he was angry, I used to tell him that “Why do you become angry”?
FAB: What sorts of pros and cons do you see in the current political system?
MSN: What could I say in this regard. This is a big question of politics. However, I must say that [political] changes do occur in Pakistan year after year, which is not good. It has become [unfortunately] a tradition to disgrace a respectable person. At the top level, the people do fight together and then they show down and replace each other. It is a pity that what is going on? It is not understandable.
FAB: And what do you think were the pros and cons in the previous political system [Mirdom/Chief ship]?
MSN: The Mirdom was a source of honor for our region. When there was quarrel between a man and a woman, they were not taken to the police station. There was no police to go to the house and get investigation rather a dialogue process was encouraged among the relatives. At this level, when there was no success, they were then coming to us. Here, we used to listen them and make them understand. But in this period [system], when even a brother quarrels with his brother, the police arrests them and takes them to the police station. Or even if there is any quarrel between a husband and a wife, they are arrested and taken to the police station. The women thus get disgraced. In short, this is not good.
FAB: During the Mirdom period, we observe an incident, you might know something about it which’s before the Nazim Khan’s era, that the people of this region used to raid and loot the caravans on the old Silk Route. Even it is being said that the men were kidnapped and sold in the Central Asia. What was this?
MSN: No, no, it wasn’t in our time; and about the previous periods I don’t know; but in our period, it wasn’t so. In order to go to Gilgit, there was there no permission for them.
FAB: Why no permission and for whom?
MSN: I don’t know why. But the ban was from the government. And the government was of the British or Maharaja’s. There was no permission to go up to Gilgit because they [the government] suspecting people among the merchants as spies who came in the caravan from China. For this reason, they were allowed only up to Hunza. The merchants in the caravans were stopped here in Hunza where they sold their merchandises to others and were going back to China.
FAB: What were the hobbies of the Mir?
MSN: The Mir was very fond of hunting. He was becoming very happy sooner with the inception of the winter season. For the hunting, he was spending the time from November to December in Gulmit. For the ibex hunting, he used to go to the Khunzhrav valley.
FAB: When the late Mir was seriously ill, what were your feelings? Any point your discussed together, esp. regarding the former State. Would you like to share, if something?
MSN: Well, he had diabetes. Although, he was also recovered but sometimes was in trouble, despite having the dietary prevention.
During his ailment, he did not mention anything special. This much he certainly described that “because of me, there is a respect for the people. In my absence [after death] our people will realize when our women will be disgraced”.
After the abolition of the Hunza State, a few cases occurred that are noteworthy in which the Mir had to play his significant role. Once, the people of Ahmadabad demanded from the government [of Pakistan] for some monetary support in order to construct a water channel. The government made a promise but did not keep its word. In the meanwhile, the then commissioner of the Northern Areas was on his visit to Hunza. The local community of Ahmadabad went towards Sarat [a place between Gojal and Central Hunza]. At this place [on the road], the people have surrounded the Commissioner and disgraced him for not providing money for the channel project. The commissioner was enraged and he sent the police force to arrest the local community and imprison them.
In this circumstance, the Mir came forward and addressed the government officials: “In my lifetime, you can not arrest my people and cannot take them to the police station. I will punish them myself”. They questioned the Mir: “Are you going against the government’s decision?” The Mir responded: “No, there is no opposition to the government; but keep in mind that our people liberated Gilgit-Baltistan. Among the martyrs of the liberation-war, you can find more Hunza people than others. If you are still not satisfied, go and see their graveyards in the Chinaar Bagh [in Gilgit]”. So we don’t oppose; but make sure that in my lifetime, you can not arrest my people. You don’t know that who is innocent and who is criminal. If a couple of individuals has thrown stones on the government’s vehicle, is it then a wise decision to arrest and dishonor the whole community? Keep in mind that I’ll never give the poor and innocent people to you guys”. The Mir did so and not handed over the authorities [who were misusing their power].
Another case came up in Murtazabad during the construction of the Karakoram Highway (KKH). Along with the Chinese, 104-batallion of the Pakistan Army [Frontiers Works Organization (FWO)] was also working. A colonel named Ejaz or so had a waiter; and someone had beaten this chap. These army people suspected that the people of Murtazabad. However, it is important to note that the chap was looking and laughing at the girls here. So the local community members took the notice and were concerned for the violation of their cultural norms by the outsiders. Therefore, in anger, the waiter was beaten. Consequently, these laboring army people, without any consultation with anyone, started a searching in houses of the village in Murtazabad. They surreptitiously put the bullets in the boxes of women. Then they made allegation that the local people had stolen their grenades/bullets. Thus, the people were arrested and the villagers were disgraced.
On this cruel incidence, the Mir of Hunza could not keep silence. He instantly phoned to the then Commander-in-Chief and intimated him by of the situations that: “On our community, your laboring army group has attacked by entering in the houses of women”. The Mir warned: “If you did not drew this military group out of Hunza, then the government should not become concerned. Our people will attack and will finish them in a day”. Consequently, the 104-battallion was immediately drawn out of Hunza.
Likewise, once, the police came to arrest a woman of Hyderabad in an allegation of beating a policeman. The Mir came in the middle and did not hand her over to the police. He said to them: “In my presence, there’ll be our own judiciary in our region”. So the late Mir discussed such incidences with me; and he said that while he is not in this world, the people would then realize. Further, Mir added: “I feel very sorry to see that husband and wife are arrested and taken to the police station. They are beaten and disgraced”.
FAB: In the last days, before the Mir’s death, did he discuss anything with you?
MSN: The views taught to the peoples were discussed that everyone will be in prosperous and everyone will be the Mir. Therefore, the Mirdom should be abolished and the like. The government of Pakistan asked for the opinion of the Mir regarding the native peoples’ demand that the Hunza State should be merged with Pakistan as it is a small country; the separate state is not good and the like.
FAB: What was the reason that the people were demanding for it?
MSN: I don’t know. The people had been taught in this manner. When there comes revolt within the people themselves, then what could be done?
FAB: Do you think that there was not any issue [drawback] in the system that led the people for such demand?
MSN: I don’t know if there were any internal issue/drawbacks within the system. But this much definitely I do know that it was taught to the people [of Hunza] to demand for the abolition of the State. In doing so, you’ll prosper; this will happen, that will happen, so on and so forth [opportunities will come]. Then the Mir was asked: “Mir sahab! If you wish and agree, you’ll be made a Minister (?)”. He replied that neither he needed to become a minister nor the viceroy. “I’m in my own country [region]. For the last one thousand years, my ancestors governed Hunza as they were made the Mirs. But now, if the people do not like the previous system, it is good and a pleasure. You can now replace me with a governor. I am in my house”. Thus, he refused in accepting any position.
FAB: Before merging the Hunza State with Pakistan, were there no demands or conditions put forward to the government? Because, when we see it in the context of Swat, the ruler first made the government accept the conditions/demands then the state was annexed with Pakistan.
MSN: Comparatively, the Swat State, which was merged with Pakistan on certain conditions, was not the ruler’s personal state but the Hunza State was our personal. In Hunza, according to their own wishes, the people established the Mirdom [Chief ship] since one thousand year. The peoples brought the Mir from another place [Darwoz in Central Asia]; and they were willingly paying the taxes to the rulers (Mirs) to run the State. While in case of the State of Swat, the people had the leaders who used to kill each other and become leaders like that in election in which one gets the leadership. There was also suppression on the people of Swat. Whosoever came in disagreements, quarrel and fighting, he was hanged. Still, they have a special tree in their jungle [forest] where the peoples are hanged before others. In contrast, we hadn’t so here in Hunza [during out time].
Although, it is narrated that there has also been some suppression here, as the basement of the basement of the Baltit fort illustrates. For one thousand years, there has been fighting between Hunza and Nagar. The people of Nagar were invading Hunza and imprisoning these people in Nager. On the other, the people of Hunza were attacking Nagar and imprisoning their people here (in Hunza).
FAB: Alright. What I meant to say previously that when a state was being abolished and merged with Pakistan, there ought to be any conditions? Wasn’t there any? What alternative then after merging the state?
MSN: Well, all in sudden it happened during the period of Bhutto.
FAB: Okay. Living together with your spouse for a long period, the Mir passes way. What were your sentiments and feelings in the aftermath?
MSN: When there is no husband, a wife certainly would feel it intensely. However, we have children, too. During his life time, the Mir had distributed the properties/land to his three sons individually and handed them over in written. Furthermore, it is noteworthy that from the beginning, there has never been the tradition of distributing land to the girls/daughters. If it were so, certainly land prosperity could have also been given to them.
FAB: Do you still feel the eternal separation of the Mir from you?
MSN: Certainly, I feel it; but what to do. However, I have my sons. I give them advice to remain in unity and respect each other. This is the greatest thing in the world “to respect each other and love each other”.
FAB: Have you also stayed in Baltit or Altit Fort?
MSN: No. before my marriage, the Baltit fort had been quitted; while the Altit fort is very old.
FAB: And what about staying in Gulmit?
MSN: In winter season, we used to stay in Gulmit. The Mir was very fond of hunting. He was preparing himself from November. Preparing the bullets, guns etc. He was saying that “For the hunting, I have brought this much guns”. Thus he was enjoying hunting.
FAB: Which place did like the most between Gulmit and Baltit?
MSN: The Mir preferred the people of Gojal among the Hunza community. The people of Gojal were paying a lot of respect to us. The Mir knew the names of almost all people there. If someone could not visit him, he used to enquire about by taking their names that what is wrong with him? Is he not feeling well? Here in Central Hunza, the palace of Karimabad was in an isolation from the villages; and though the people, here, too, were coming to meet the Mir. But, in Gulmit, the palace was within the settlement. Some times we used to visit Ghulkin and spend five days there. Sometimes, in Hussaini and when we were invited. In response to the invitations in different villages, the Mir used to tell the people that “I will come to your villages, if you have built one or two rooms”. Instantly, thus, the people were constructing the rooms. Sometimes we were visiting Murkhun and Khayber and stayed in these villages. In Passu, we were staying in the house of Adob.
FAB: It is being narrated that under the leadership of late Adob Khon of Passu, a revolt came up (in 1940) against the Mirdom. The people from Hussaini and the villages above joined together and they went up to the Misgar valley, the international border valley between China and the former Soviet Union. Then Colonel Ayash Khan went and brought them back after a reconciliation. What were the reasons of this revolt?
MSN: I think this revolt was not against the Mir rather against the tax collectors (trangpas) who were sent by the Mir from Hunza to Gojal. The trangpas had misused their power and collected more taxes from the peoples. Therefore, they had the condition that the trangpas from Hunza should not go to Gojal rather the arbobs (villages’ head) should be responsible for performing this duty. On this issue, the occurrence came up. It was not against the Mir rather the people of Gojal were very happy with him. The issue was on the taxes. The trangpas were embezzling the taxes and not delivering them appropriately here [to the Mir]. When the notables of Gojal knew it, then the fighting and revolt took place.
FAB: Were you also visiting the Bobo Ghundi shrine in Chipursan, too? If yes, had you any belief in the shrine?
MSN: The Bobo Ghundi Shrine was repaired by the Mir himself that was previously in worse condition. It is being related that this is the grave of Hazrat Imam Muhammad Baqir. Therefore, we were going to this shrine every year and spending two days there. We used to pay our respect by offering the prayer and slaughtering a he-goat.
FAB: Do you know any incident or miracle related to the Bobo Ghundi? Or have you yourself observed fulfillment of any of your intentions?
MSN: Yes of course. I have personal faith in the Bobo Ghundi. Before the birth of my elder son, Ghazanfar, I had gone to this shrine cordial intentions. I offered prayers and other peoples also prayed for us. In the aftermath, I got my elder son.
FAB: How many years after your marriage, Ghazanfar was born?
MSN: After many years of our marriage, Ghazanfar was born. Before him, we had two daughters and no son. But with a true intention, I visited Bobo Ghundi then my elder son was born. Then my second son, Amin Khan and then my third son Abbas Khan were born. The Mir had also a true belief in this shrine.
FAB: Let us suppose that the government of Pakistan decides to restore the Hunza State; and the government requests you to be the queen, again. Would you accept it?
MSN: No brother, It won’t happen. But if, in case, it happens so, then it is okay. … hehehehehe. (laughter). However, it is to mention that Ghazanfar is there. If the people have sense and intellect, they will do so. We are with the people and people are with us. it is noteworthy that if there is any work with the government, we do perform it. Further, if there is anything to be conveyed to the Imam of the Time, we do it, too.
In addition, I would like to say that it is incumbent upon the people that during the election day, the people should caste their vote to whom they want to caste. But it is not necessary to disclose to each other. The people are being shown the symbols. If they can’t understand, they should ask whose symbols are they; and then definitely put the votes in the box. There is no point of disclosing the cast-vote to others. According to one’s wish, one should cast the vote. What is the need of abusing each other or having the rallies outside. Then after two year, they will be ashamed [if couldn’t do anything]… hehehehehe.(laughter).
FAB: You saw 75 [or more ] springs in your life. On the one hand, the previous political system changed; and on the other, the Mir [your spouse] passed away. How do you feel your life is currently going on in comparison with the previous time?
MSN: Well, it is smooth. Nice people were with us also in the previous time [during Mirdom period]; and nice people are with us these days [post-Mirdom period], too. Previously, there were no people against us; while these days, there are people opposing us. But we don’t care because the world is so open. Wherever we wish, we can live. Even one can live along with his/her families out of the country/region. It is one’s choice, indeed; and for us, we don’t find much difference.
FAB: When peoples come to meet you, how do you feel?
MSN: I’m pleased, certainly, when they come to meet me. They meet me any time. Some people also come at night, if they have any emergency call or telephone to their relatives. They prefer to come to my house and talk to their kinspersons because when they go to the telephone exchange, they are charged for it. The people say: “When we go to the doctors, they ask us to go to the clinic and for the clinic, we haven’t got that much money”. Therefore, without any fear, we help such people. Some poor people come and ask me to telephone so and so doctors by recommending that they should not get that much amount of money for the operation, as they are financially weak.
FAB: Besides the Mir, how was your relationship with Colonel Ayash Khan, the then Secretary of the State, and other family members?
MSN: He was younger brother of the Mir, Jamal Khan. He was very nice with us and he was not married. All his life, he spent in the service of the Mir being the Secretary of the Hunza State. Sometimes, he was becoming very angry. If someone did something wrong, he never excused them. Therefore, the Mir was sometimes becoming angry at him by saying: “Ayash Khan! What are you doing?” In response, Ayash Khan was saying: “Leave it! You are afraid”. The Mir was saying that yes, I am afraid.
FAB: Apart from him, how was your relationship with Mr. Jamshid Khan?
MSN: Jamsheed Khan, another brother of the Mir, wasn’t here in Hunza rather most of his time he spent in the military and outside. Even in his last days, he stayed outside separately from his family. Finally, he became sick and was passed away.
FAB: In your opinion, what should the women of the ruling family do for the betterment of the needy and weak women of the society? What should be their roles?
MSN: It is important that according to our capacity, we should work for the betterment of the needy women. For instance, if someone needs medicines or other things. Keeping in view my limited strength, I do work for the small activities of women.
FAB: Being a daughter of Nager and the last queen of Hunza, what messages would you like to give to the people, especially women, of Hunza and Nager?
MSN: First, if the people could afford, seek knowledge. Be nice and competent. Live in unity. Don’t give up your respective cultures. If our people want to listen then it is nice. But if don’t listen, it is their willing. More often it is said: “That was the old world and the people are still following the old world; and now it is the new world”.
FAB: One or two questions at the end, if you like to answer. What is your faith in religion?
MSNS: Well, all of us are Muslims.
FAB: Anyway, what I mean is sect-wise within Islam. You have met and seen the Imams also: His Highness, Shah Karim al-Hussaini, Aga Khan IV; and His Royal Highness, Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah, Aga Khan III. So did you meet them as a disciple or …?
MSN: During my marriage, my parents never told me that they were the Shia and when I am in Hunza, I should never become Ismaili. And when I came to Hunza, no one told me here that you are Shia and never become Ismaili. I myself address the Aga Khan as Hazar Imam and I go to him. And the way he deserves the honor, I do pay it. And I do go to the Ismaili jamatkhana, when am invited. In addition, I offer my prayers; I do fast; and if I don’t feel well, I do not fast. That is all. Muslims are one. If some one affirms: “There is no God, but God; and Muhammad is the Messenger of God”; s/he is a Muslim. Further, what does the Sunni say and what does the Shia say, there is no benefit, indeed. They quarrel together. The fundamental principles for the Muslims are same.
FAB: You are right, of course. Now, this is the final question. In your nice message to the people of Hunza and Nager, you also mentioned about and emphasized “not to give up one’s culture”. So, marriage is also part of a culture. Mir Ghazanfar got married out of his region and culture in addition with his son Salem Khan. Do you think such kind of marriages should be encouraged or otherwise?
MSN: Well, it happened so by chance. We had sent Ghazanfar to study from there (Lahore). Then he liked a girl and got married. For a certain period, we suspended this proposal that a girl from outside cannot be our daughter-in-law. But he got married, what could be done?
Afterwards, Saleem was married. At that time when my consent was taken, I replied: “If this boy’s mother is marrying him by force with her niece, then okay. But they have two more sons and their marriages should be from our area with our family. And if they also got married outside, it is your will: I won’t say anything”.
FAB: Madam! It is so kind of you for sparing this much time for us. Thanks very much.
MSN: Thanks to you, too.
I’m so much indebted to the late and wonderful Madam Shams-un Nihar, the last Rani of the former Hunza State, for giving her kind consent to share her enriched and decades long expereiential knowledge with me.though, today, she is no mor with us, she is alive in her video and her lovely discussions will touch innumerable peoples hart with the course of time.
I’m grateful to my scholar friend, dr. John Mock of university of California, Santa cruze , for his kind review of the interview and bringing some improvement in the draft wherever deemd necessary in linguistic context.
Similary, I’m also thankful to my German couple and scholar cum researcher friends,Professor Dr. Hermann Kreutzmann (Free University, Berlin) and Sabine Felmy for their time to time encouragement and appreciation of the fieldwork mission within anthropological, linguistic and applied side of development.
I could never forget the ever support, appreciation and encouragement of my respected and great brother Ghulam Amin Beg who has been playing his role not only as a judicious patron but also as a visionary mentor in my academic endeavors in my life.
My special gratitude to Haqiqat Ali and Wazir Aman of Ghulkin, Hunza for their kind facilitation of making the video of the late Rani of Hunza. In the same manner, thanks to ahmad Jami of Gulmit in accompanying me to meet and take appointment of her for the interview, a week earlier. Also, I owe my indebtedness to Mr. Niyatullah of Gulmit for giving us a wonderful ride from Gulmit to Karimabad in his jeep on July 16, 2000.
Sabiq Riyasat e Hunza ke Marhuma Raani, Mohtarama Šams-un Nihar, ka Inṭerview
Interviewer: Fazal Amin Beg (FAB) Interviewee: Madam Shams-un Nihar (MSN)
Date of Interview: July 16, 2000
FAB: Aaj 16 Julayi 2000 he. Ham Gulmit Gojal se yahaan Karimabad, Markazi Huna, me Begum Jamal Xan, Riyasat Hunza ki mohtarima or axiri Raani, ko inṭerviw karne aaye hen taaki un ki sarguzašt ko jama kar sake. Hamari hatmi košis hogi ki is maxtasartarin waqat me, jo ki hame Γazanfar Ali Xan sahab ne muškil se inayat ki he, ham mohtarima Raani sahiba se kuč sawaalaat kare or un ke jawaabaat le ley.
Mohtarima! Sab se pehle, hame apne paydayiš ke hawaale se bataa dijye ga ki aap kab peyda huwe honge? Or aap ke xandan waalun ke kiya jazbat or ehsasaat rahe honge aap ki paydayiš par? Aap ke walidayn ne zarur aap se kuč tazkare kiye honge, agar aap ko yaad he.
MSN: Mujhe kuč baate yaad he, kuč baate yaad nahi he. Meri paydayiš ke ba’d Šuru me to me apne walidayn ke paas thi, Nagar Xaas me; or 14 saal ki umar me meri šaadi hogayi thi. Šaadi se aaj tak ye kitna saal hota he, ye to aap log nakaa sakte he.
FAB: Hm, is hawale se abhi ham niče Darbaar Hoṭel me Mir Γazanfar Ali Xan sahib se baat kar rahe the to un ka kehna he ki aap ki umar 75 saal se ziyada he.
MSN: Šayad 75 saal ho.
FAB: To kiya aap apna naam hame batana pasand farmayenge?
MSN: Kiyo nahi. Mera naam Šam-un Nihar he.
FAB: Ača, Šamsun Nihar he, mašallah. Jab aap ki peydayiš huyi Nagar xaas me, to aap ke koyi daayi waγera rahe honge. Kiya aap ko kuč pata he ki kon the aap ke daayi log?
MSN: Taqriban ek saal tak me ne apni walida ka dud piya. Phir ek saal ke ba’d hamare rasm ke mutabiq, jeysa ki aap k pata he, daya late the Hunza or Nagar me. Daya wo jo jo ačhe xaandan waale ho. Mere daya Wazir Teyfur the or wo abhi fawt huwa.
FAB: Ačha to aap Wazir Teyfur ke haan rahi he. Wo aap ke Ušam the?
MSN: Ji ha, wo ušam the or un ke bete ke Bibi ne mujhe dud pilayi.
FAB: Kiya Wazir Teyfur ke beṭe the?
MSN: Ji ha, Wo foj me tha un ka naam Maalik Šah tha.
FAB: Bačpan me aap ki sehliyaan waγra rahe honge jo aap ke saath hansi mazaaq karthe honge …
MSN: Han, bohot se the.
FAB: Ek do sehliyun ke hawale se hame bata sakenge ki wo kon thi?
MSN: Mere saath daayan thi, ladkiyaan bhi thi, apne rištadar ki laḍkiyaan bhi hothe the, or aksar nokarun ki laḍiyan.
FAB: Šarafat or šararat beče or bačyun ki sarišt me hoti he. Koyi do waqiyat aap hame bata sakti he ki Nagar ke mahal me aap šararat or šarafat ke liye mašhur thi?
MSN: Har bačiyun me šararat hoti thi, magar walidayn or dusre samjhane waale ghar par tariqa sikhathe the ki ye kaam karna he, ye nahi karna he. Or har ek se tamiz se baath kare. Or har ek se mu unča kar ke baat kare phir wo log bhi aap se ačhe adaaz se baat karenge.
FAB: Ačha, bačpan me kabhi ye aap ke xayal me aayi ki aap Hunza ki Raani banegi?
MSN: Nahi, hehehe (laughter). Us waqat mujhe xayal hi nahi tha balki me to apne khilone e saath khelti thi, baču ke saath kelti thi. Jab meri umr 14 saal ki huyi to mere waalideyn ne meri šaadi ka intizaam kiya tha. Us waqat mujhe pata bhi nahi tha ki meri bhi šaadi hoti he.
FAB: Kiya aap ke walidayn ne aap se kabhi ye tazkara kiya ya pučha ki “ham aap ki šaadi Hunza me kar he”?
MSN: Nahi. Lekin mujhe to pata hoti thi. Waled or walida ki zindagi me hamara rasm nahi he ki laḍki ko jahan šaadi karna he, hame pučhna jaaye balki pučne ko aar samamajhte the. Waled or waalida jo čahte the, use ham qabul karte the.
FAB: Ačha, us waqat Hunza or Nagar alag alag sṭeṭ thi jo ki aapas me aksar aapas harif rahe he. Jab Hunza se aap ki mangni ke liye tajwiz laayi gayi to aap ke ya aap ke walidayn ke kiya xayal rahe honge?
MSN: Baat ye he ki šuru šuru me aap ko pata he ki Hunza ka jitna xandan he, wo Nager ka he, or Nager ka jitna xandan he wo Hunza ka he.
FAB: Aapas me šadiyan hoti thi?
MSN: Šaadiyan hoti thi. Phir ba’d me gaḍbaḍ ho kar Hunza or Nager ki laḍayi huyi to Angrezu he šaadiya band ki thi. Visray tha na, us ne Hunza or Nagar ki šaadiya band kiya tha. Aapas me šaadiya ney karenge. Kiyonki ye ek dusre ko marte the na, aap ko pata he, Hunza waale Nager or Nager waale Hunza ko. To phir mere šaadi ke waqat us se ijaazat li gayi thi. Ijaazat le ke šaadi ki na. unhun ne dastaxat kar ke Hunza or Nager ki Unhu ne lik ke diya tha ki Hunza or Nager ke šaadiyaan khol di gayi. Warna ney hoti hoti thi. Unhun ne lik ke diya tha ki šaadiyan ney hogi.
FAB: Matlab aap se pehle, jis tarah aap ne farmaaya, ki šaadiya Hunza or Nagar ki aapas me huwa karti thi,
MSN: Ha, pehle to ney tha na. band kiya tha.
FAB: Ha, matlab pehle hot thi, viceroy ne band kiya,phir aap ke šaadi ke ṭaym (time) pe ijaazat lena paḍa.
MSN: Ijaazat. Phir yahan mere waaled or Mir Nazim Xan tha, unhun ne ijaazat le liya. Unhun ne ijaazat liya ki laḍayi jagḍa ney kerenge, šaadi kereng. Phir ijaazat se šaadi hogayi.
FAB: Us waqat jab ye baate ho rahi thi, yahan se ye tajwiz bheji gayi šaadi ke liye, to aap ne apne sehliyun se bhi guftušanid ki?
MSN: Ney, me ne kuč nahi kaha. Bas jo karte he maan baap …
FAB: Phir bhi hoti he na, sehliyaan jo he, aysi mazaaq se kehte he ki ye he, wo he, …
MSN: Wo mazhab ke lihaaz se mujhe kehte the, γusa dilaane ke liye kehte the.
FAB: Kiya kehte the?
MSN: Bas ye ki wo Ismayili he, Aγa Xani he. Or ye ki ham yahaan Nager me Šiya he. To kis tarah šaadi karte he. Wo log šaraab pite he, ye wo karte he. Ham log ye ney karte he. To bas mere waaled ki waalida Hunza ki thi na, Šah Γazanfar ki beṭi thi, Zebun Nisa, mere waaled ki waalida idhar ki thi naa, Šah Γazanfar ki beṭi. Šah Γazanfar ki čhe laḍkiyaan thi yahaan Hunza ka. To ek ki šaadi huyi thi yahaan Astor me, Raja Bahadur Xan se, Astor me huyi thi. Un ki famili ab tak Astor me he. Sultan Muhammad Šah he na, un ke pote he.
FAB: Ačha, čha.
MSN: Phir dusre ki šaadi Badaxšaan me huyi. Un ke family ab he Kabul me he. Phir meri daadi čoṭi thi. Zebun Nisa un ki naam thi jin ki mere daada se šaadi huyi Zaafar Xan se. Un se mere waaled peyda huwa. Mera waaled čhoṭa tha, phir un se tin čaar baḍe bhayi the. Wo aapas me laḍayi ki wajah se, do to maar diya giya na.
FAB: Ačha, kis ne un ko maar diya?
MSN: Bas us ka dusra sutela bhayi tha, us ko logun ne, us zamane me to maara koyi baḍi baat nahi thi, ajib nahi thi. Unhun ne kaha ki … ye baḍa hogiya to aap ko taklif denge, usko maro. Ek ka naam Babar tha, ek kaa naam Haritham (?) Xan tha. Wo Yal jo he na, Hindi ke paas, upar se pathar aata he, us jage, Γulmet me, or un ka jaagir tha Γulmet me, to wahan se pulu ke bahane bulaaya or wahan un ko maar diya. To mera waaled čhoṭa tha us waqat. To Anrezun ko lane ke liye, wo or Wazir Hamayun donu bhaag ke Gilgit gaye, or Angrez ko laaya. To phir aman hogiya. Phir ba’d me mere waaled ko …
FAB Angrez ko jab pehli baar laaya, us waqat ya us ke ba’d ki baat he?
MSN: Maha Raje ki hukumat me.
FAB: Ačha čha Mahraraje ki hukumat, sahi.
MSN: Angrezun ne kayi saal tak yahan, Phandad? Kehte he, wahan hoṭal banaya, kemp banaya, wo yahan kitne saal raha. Mere waaled ko Nagar ka Amir banaaya.
FAB: To is liye jab aap ki šaadi ho rahi thi to is hawale se hamphir is tarah se kuč baat kar le ki jab aap ki šaadi ho rahi thi to Hunza or Nager ke riyasat ke ilawa, in me jo royal family ke the, to in ke ilawa bahar se bhi koyi royal family waale bhi aaye the? Agar aaye the, to aap ke xayaal me andazan kitne honge? Kuč yaad aap ko he?
MSN: Wo to bohot hote the naa, rištadaar hote the Čitral se le kar Punyal, Yasin, Gilgit me bhi hamaare xandaan ka he. Mere baap ka ek bhayi Gilgit me tha Raaja. Ek Nomal me tha, ek Gilgit me tha, Alidad or Kamal. Un ka family ab tak Gilgit me he. Phir mera waaled Nager ka Mir ban gaya. Aapaas me šadiyan huyi or yahan se, mere tin behnun ka Babar aap ko pata he ki hero tha, us se šaadi huyi. Wo mere nan thi or bhabi bhi thi Mir sahb ki behn or Mir Γazan Xan ki beṭi. or dusra, Mir Nazim Xan ke beṭi se mere dusre bhayi ki šaadi huyi. Or Raja Muzaffar ud din Šah kehte the, Superindendent tha Jel ka Gilgit me, wo bhi fowt huwa, us se šaadi huyi. Bas aysa aapas me šaadiyan hi šaadiyan huyi.
FAB: Aap ki jo šaadi ho rahi thi, us waqat log kiya kuč ye tuhfe (gifts) waγeyra laya kiya karte the?
MSN: Wo Nager waale laate the na. Wo bas apne halaat ke mutaabiq, koyi zulm ney tha.
FAB: Kiya kuč ziyada laaya karte the?
MSN: Sona laaya karte the. Sona nikalta tha na darya se. Us waqat or čiz to ney milta tha. Sona nikalta tha. Wo zewar ke liye sona laate the. Wo Nager me bhi ača rasm tha. Wo apne marzi se laate the. Phir hamara rasm tha ki γarib logun ne laaya to us ko waapas karte the. Agar izat waala kisi ne laaya to wo rakthte the naam likh kar. Phir un ki šaadiyan huyi to hamara waaled un ko bhi tohfa dete the un ki šadiyun par.
FAB: Kiya kuč tohfa waapas dete the?
MSN: Bas wo jo čahte the. Us waqat jo wo čahte the. Kapḍe ney. Aaṭa, ghi or beḍhu, aysa jo kuč zarurat un ko hoti to un ko dete the. Jo log hamaare šaadi par laate the. Sona laate the.
FAB: Jab aap ki šaadi hogayi, Nager se yahan Hunza aa rahe the. Ye insane ke zehn me kabhi aysi xayaalat to zarur aate. Kabhi matlab aysa soč bhi damaγ me aaya ki kihe mujhe waapas to nahi jaana hoga Hunza se?
MSN: Kabhi jaati thi me waalideyn se milne ke liye.
FAB Nahi. Mera matlab he ki ayse xadšaat ki kihe aysa to nahi hoga ki talaaq to na no. is qism ke xayalaat?
MSN: Wo purane zamaane me suna he ki aysa hota tha. Magar hamare waqt me ye baat nahi tha. Izat karte the.
FAB: Acha, cha, cha. Sahi. Kitne log aap ki šaadi me aye honge andazan?
MSN: Baraat me?
FAB: Ha baraat me.
MSN: Yahan Hunza se kitne honge, ye in ko pata hoga. Wahan se mere saath, us zamane me jip roḍ nahi tha ki jip ya wagon čale. Naam bhi nahi suna tha. Ghoḍe par samaan laathe the. Wahan se samaan lane ka, wo log alahida. Baaqi bas do tin saw log aye the. Or un ka rasm tha ki yahan jab aaye to un sab ko pehle darje waalun ko bandoq dena, phir ghoḍe dena, phir kapḍe, čapan kehte he, čuγe hote the, wo dena. Aysa dete the. Phir wahan se aane waalun ko yahan dulha ki taraf se bhi un ko aysa dete the. Hunza waalun ko or Nager waalun ko. Kiyonki hamaari šaadi me jitna jehez waaled ki taraf se milta tha, us se ziyada baraat ko dete the.
FAB: Kitne darje ke log aaya karte the?
MSN: Tin darje.
FAB: Kon kon se?
MSN: Pehle darje waale hote the jeysa ki nambardar, bas ačhe ačhe čun čun kar, har gaaw se, phir dusre darje ka hota tha, phir tisre darje ka.
FAB: Dusre darje ke kis qism ke log aya karte the?
MSN: Bas wo bhi aam log hote the.
FAB: Tisre darje me?
MSN: Samaan laane waale alahida. In ko dete the. Wo apne rištadar me bhi koyi aate the, un ko bhi dete the.
FAB: Jeysa ki abhi aap ne bataaya ki jo bhi mehman yahan šarkat karte the, to un ko waapas un ke darje ke mutabiq aap un ko tuhfe dete the.
MSN: Ačhi čiz dete the. Goḍhe dete the, bandoq dete the. Ačhi čize dete the. Us zamaane me raḍiu or ṭv, aysi čize nahi thi. Us waqat Inḍia Pakistan me bhi ney the.
FAB: Kitni banḍ groups ya riwayati ḍol bajhaane waale?
MSN: Wo bajhaane waale hote the na. Ye ki ḍol ka hota tha. Dusra, dusra wo jo gabi jeysa hota he na, sunray. Us ke hote the čhe. Čhe or čhe baara. Un ko bhi saath haar behna kar, čuγa pehnaa kar wahan se aate the. Phir yahan se bhi un ko dete the. Yahan se wahan or wahan se yahan (Hunza).
FAB: Kitne din tak aap ki šaadi ki taqrib rahi?
MSN: Nager kiyon ki nazdik he na. pehle program karte the. Yahan se baraat aaye to wahan (Nager) me un ko načate the. Ek din rakh kar dusre din waapas.
FAB: Tamaša kitne din tak jaari rahi?
MSN: Baraat ke saath ek din or ek raat hota tha. Baqi apne logun ke saath to kaafi din tak.
FAB: Ačha čha čha. To aap ke kitney bače he?
MSN: Abhi mere tin beṭe or čhe laḍkiyan he.
FAB: Tin beṭe. Aap un ka naam bata sakte he?
MSN: Wo baḍa beṭa he na, Mir Γazanfar Ali Xan. Phir Amin Xan. Phir Abbas Xan. Bačyun me se meri baḍi beṭi ka mere baḍe bhayi ke beṭe se šaadi huyi he, Šawal us ka naam he. Ek jo aayi thi or Gulmit gayi he aaj, Nilufar. Ek or thi, hamari purani Daadi ka naam, Nur Begum. Malika kehte he use. Ek or Pir Karam Ali Šah ke ghar me he, use Meri kehte he, us ka naam Mehr Jamal he. Or Čoṭi beṭi ki šaadi Karnel Šer Xan se šaadi huyi, Šah Xan ki bahu he, us ka naam Azra he.
FAB: Jab aap ka baḍa beṭa peyda huwa, apne waaled ka jaanašin, Mir Γazanfar Ali Xan, to aap logun ki kiya ahsasaat thi, kiya tawaqu’at thi un se mustaqbil ke liye?
MSN: Bas, hamara beṭa peyda huwa. Us ke dada ke zamane me, Mir Γazan Xan ke zamaane me peyda huwa tha na. Wo čhoṭa tha. Phir Mir Γazan Xan fawt huwa to us waqat us ko Angrezun ne kaha tha ki “Aap us ko Tan ka milk pilaaye”.
FAB: Kis čiz ka?
MSN: Tan milk jo hota he na, glexo, wo pilaye kyonki baḍe beṭe to baḍe ahtiyat se paalna he. Kyonki maan ka dud kabhi ačha hota he, kabi ney hota he. Is lihaaz se ham ne us ko tan ka dud pilaaya.
FAB: Un ka ušam is hawale se koyi he?
MSN: Kisi ne us ko dud to ney pilaaya, albata xidamat karta tha, Ayub mar gaya, Amjad Ayub ka waaled. Wo us ka dekhbaal karta tha. Dud to us ko kisi ne nahi pilaya, tan milk pe us ko paala giya.
FAB: Aap logun ki kiya xayaalyat thi, kiya ahsasaat thi un se, Mir Γazanfar Ali Xan se mustaqbil ke liye ki mustaqibil me kiya hoga? Kis qism ka hoga?
MSN: Us ko dada kehta tha ki us ko bahar ney bhejenge baḍhayi ke liye, apne mulk me paḍhayenge. Or ziya loun ke saath milna julna ho yahaan ke logu ke saath, or sab kuč us ko pata hona čahiye. Agar baar, Amika ya kihe or us ko bejha to phir us ka adat, sab kuč muxtalif hoga. Wo logun se nafrat kare ga. Or baar šadi karega. Is liye, apne mulk me paḍna čahiye. Taaham, us ko ham ne bejha. Punjab University Lahore se us ne paḍa. phir us ko baar ney bejha.
FAB: Marhum Mir ke saath aap ne kaafi safar ki, kaafi area aap ne dekha, bahar bhi dekha, Pakistan se bahar, or Pakistan ke andar bhi. To Pakistan se bahar ke mutaliq kuč batayenge ki aap Paris Imam Aqa Sultan Muhammad Šah, His Higness ke ṭime pe aap ko da’wat di gayi thi, or mawjuda Imam ke dawr me bhi aap ko da’wat di gayi thi …
MSN: Ha, bohot daf’a.
FAB: To is hawale se hame kuč bataana pasand farmayenge?
MSN: Pehle to aap ko pata he ki Gilgit tak na jahaz aata tha, na jip ka raasta. Kašmir jaate waqat by-road jaate the, Astor ke raaste se goḍhe par jate the. Pandra din lagta tha. Maha Raja ke ṭime me. Phir jab hukumat tabdil hogiya, to phir Gilgit tak jahaz ka aana hogiya. Jip roḍ hogiya. Us ke ba’d ham gaye Pinḍi. pinḍi dekha, Pešawur dekha, Karači dekha. Phir Hazir Imam, Sultan Mohammad Šah tha, us waqat. Wo Karachi me hota tha. Sab se pehle un se mila to unhune kaha ki aap kahan ṭehrte he? Mir sahab ne kaha ki abhi abhi ham aaye he, Karači me hamara apna ghar ney he. Governmenṭ hame kuč intizaam kere ga, ham wahan ṭehrenge. Hazir Imam ne kaha, uswaqat Sultan Muhammad Šah hazir Imam tha, kaha, “Mera ghar, Moon Lodge, Karači me. Us ghar me, me payda bhi huwa hun.
FAB: Ačha, Ṭekri jo kehte he, Aγa Xan Ṭekri?
MSN: Han, han. Kaha ki aap wahan ṭehre. To phir ham wahan ṭehrte the, jab bhi jaate the Pakistan banne ke ba’d. Us waqat roḍ band tha. Aana jaana nahi tha. Hinduwun ka qabza tha yahan Gilgit par. Jab Gilgit me Gansarasing ko xatam kar ke Gilgit par hamare foj ne laḍayi kar ke phir Gilgit un se čhin liya. Phir Gilgit ko Pakistan ke saath šamil karne ke liye un ko ṭeligram diya, to ḍar kar kuč jawab nahi diya, Pakistan walun ne. kaha ki ye Hinduwu ka he. Or ham ne zabardasti qabza kiya to wo ham par I’traz karenge, or jagḍha hoga. Mir Sahab Nagar or Mir sahab Hunza xud hame bataaye to, wo taslim kiya to ham Gilgit par qabza karenge. 13 din tak, ya 15 din tak is tarah kuč Gilgit par bambari šuru hogayi Hinduwun ki taraf se. Ye hamara ilaaqa tha. Pakistan ke liye, wahan ke, Northern Areas ke logun ne ham se čhin liya keh kar šor kiya. Phir bahar se tar diya to Liyaqat Ali Xan zinda tha. Us ne Mir Sahab Hunza or Mir sahab Nagar ko kaha, “aap log agar ham ko taslim karte he to aap xud yahan aaye, or likh kar ham ko bejhe to ham Gilgit par qabu kerenge, warna to wo ‘etraz karte he. Unhun ne taslim kar ke us ko kahah. Us ne kaha ki, do tin šart kiya ki ye ye čiz hoga, baqi ham sab intizaam karenge.
FAB: Un šarayat ka aap ko kuč pata he?
MSN: Kuč pata he, kuč bhul gayi hun. Ek ye tha ki agar hame zarurat hogayi to ham Northern Areas se čun kar foj lenge. Us waqat Gilgit me scouṭ tha, aysa kuč tha. Foj to nahi tha. Pulis or fowj ke liye aap log ‘etraz nahi kerenge. Or dusra, Foreign Policy ho to ham se puč kar phir foreign policy banaye. Baaqi apna rasm u riwaaj ham apni marzi se čalayenge. Aapne mulk me jo rasm riwaaj he. Ye nahi he ki ek dam Pakistan ya Hindustan ka naqal karenge. Aysa nahi hoga. Apne mulk ka rams u riwaaj čalaayenge. Phir un ko de diya, un ko bulaaya, Mir sahab Nager ko or Mir sahab Hunza ko. Wo gaye Karači. Liyaqat Ali Xan that us waqat. Un se baat huyi. Phir unhune kaha ki bas aap hamiša yahan aaye keh kar xud us waqat sab se pehle yahan Gilgit me Political Agenṭ bejha: Muhammad Alam tha.
FAB: Ačha, ye jo Inṭernational aap ne safar ki us bare me hame bataa dijye ga ki Paris aap kitne dafa gaye? Or dusre jaghun me?
MSN: Bas us ke ba’d Hazir Imam, Sir Sultan Muhammad Šah, ne Mir sahab ko kaha ki aap aaye, Paris mere paas, mera mehman rahe. Phir aap ka dil xoš hoga. Aap pehli daf’a dekhenge. Mir sahab ne manzur kiya ki me aawun ga. Us ne kaha ki agar aap, Misr me bhi mera ghar he or Paris me bhi, agar aana čhahte ho. Mir sahab ne kaha ki ney ham Pari or London nahi dekha he, wo dekhna čhahenge. Phirhame Pari bulaya. Pehli martaba ham 1948 me Paris gaye, Pakistan banne ke ba’d. Us waqat Aγa Xan, raat ke baara baje (12:00 AM) hamara jahaz pohenč gaya jab ham Karači se čale. Dusre din raat ke 12:00 baje ham pohenč gaye. Jahaz se ham utre to wo xud istiqbaal ke liye Airport tašrif laye the, Imam Sir Sultan Muhammad Šah. Ham ko pata nahi tha. Ham jahaz ke siḍhi pe utre to hamare intizaam ke liye Aγa Majiid Xan ko bejha tha.
FAB: Ačha, wo kon tha?
MSN: Wo Imam ka rištadar tha, wo Bombay me tamaam Ismailyun par kamaan karta tha, Aγa Majiid Xan. Us ko hamare paas bejha tha Karači se, intizaam ke liye. Wo hamare saath tha. Ham jahaaz se utre to bilkul jahaaz ke siḍi par ek bohot bhaḍa kaar aaya. Ham ne soča kis ka kaar hoga. Ham niče utre to wo xud tha. Wo bilkul safed kamiz or ṭayi (tie) or ṭap haṭ laga kar xud tašrif laye the. Ek bas bhi wahan khaḍi thi eyrporṭ (airport). Mir sahab ne or me ne us ki dast busi ki. Or salam kiya, bhot xoš hogaye. Mujh par.
FAB: Aap par?
MSN: Ji han, mujh par, or Mir sahab par. Mir sahab ne kaha, “aap ne kiyon hame šarminda kiya, raat ke andhere me aap kiyo tašrif laye, or zahmat ki. To Imam ne farmaya, “nahi, ye mera farz he. Aap mere mehman he. Mujhe aana čahiye. Phir axbaar likhne waale (akhbaari numaayinde) bhi aaye. Unhun ne Imam se pučha ki wo kon aaraha he ki aap itne ayse ḍres pehn kar aap airport aaye he? Unhun ne farmaya: “bas in se baḍa mera or koyi mehman koyi nahi he”, axbaar waalun se farmaya. Kaha, bas mere baḍe mehman ye he. In se baḍe mehman koyi nahi he. Kaha, ye mere beṭe ki jaga par he. Or mera xaas farzand he. Phir ham ghar gaye. Unhun ne farmaya ki aap ke liye intizaam kiya he, me to apna ghar jawunga or subah aap se milunga. Aap ke liye me ne ghar ke nazdik ek baḍa hoṭal he, us me aap ke liye intizaam kiya he. Or mera beṭa Prince Sadr ud Din aap ki dekhbaal karega. Subuh ham ja ke bohot xoš ho gaye. Ekis din heme apne ghar me biṭaya. 21 din ke ba’d kaha.
FAB: 21 din? Or mehina aap ko pata he ki konsa tha?
MSN: 21 din or mehina Disambar tha ya January tha. Us ke ba’d unhun ne kaha, ye to aap ne dekha France or mere saath bohot ačha waqt guzara. Abhi yahan se ja ke London ko vizit kare. Or dusre bohot šahru ko dekhne ke liye aap ko bohot waqt lage ga. Mir sahab ne kaha, us waqat Imam to Aswand me the, Aswand ney, kiya naam he, Paris ke samandar ke nazdik ek jaga he, kiya naam tha me bhul gayi, wahan un ka ghar he, udhar us ghar ko apne begum ko diya tha. Ume Habiba ko.Wahan me hun. Or yahan se ja kar London dekhe. To phir ham Lodon gaye. To London me unuhne likh kar apne sekreṭri ko de diya Aγa … ki aap udhar un ko bata de ki ye hamare mehman he, or Kwin (Queen) se in ki mulaqaat kara de.
FAB: Malika e Bartaniya se?
MSN: To ham sidha ṭren (train) me gaye. Kenṭ me tha. Kenṭ se Paris ṭren me gaye. Ek raat or ek din me ham Paris pohnč gaye. Queen Elizabeth Hotel me hame panč din ṭerraya. Phir Paris se London gaye jahaaz me. London me bhi wahan bohot sare hoṭels he. Park Hoṭel or dusra ek or hoṭel tha, wahan hamare liye intizaam kiya tha. Wahan pe xuje log or jamatxaane se log airport aaye. Or wahan se ye kwin se milne ke liye, ye Mata Salamat hamare saath bejha tha.
FAB: Haal hi me jin ki wafaat hogayi?
MSN: Ji, Ume Habiba. Un ko hidayat di gayi thi ki wo sare jage hamare saath aayengi, kiyon ki ham nawaqif he, or hame pata nahi thi. Imam ne farmaya: “Me buḍa hun or čalne me mujhe taklif hoti he”. Hazir Imam xud nahi aaye or wo hamare saath aayi. To phir Prince Sadr ud Din ko kaha ki wo hame Paris ke andar sayr karaye. Baaqi mere sekreṭri he, or meri Bibi he, ye jayegi. To us ne ja kar kwin ko ṭelifon ki or us ko payγam bejha. To unhun ne kaha ki do din ke ba’d aap mile, Bukingham Palace me. To ham ko wahan le gaye or kwin se mulaaqat hogayi. Or Kwin ki madar (mother) thi us waqat, us ka baap bhi tha. Ye hone waali thi, apne baap ke jaga. Baap to marga giya tha. Tajpuši ke liye intizaam kar rahe the. To ham un se kuč waqt ke liye mil kar phir ham apne hoṭel me ṭehre. To aṭh din ham London me ṭehr kar phir ham Paris aaye. Paris me phir ek hafta ṭehr kar, ham Kenṭ aaye. Or Kenṭ se ham waapas Karači aaye. Or ye kaha ki London or Paris aap ne dekha. Likin agle saal aap dubara aayenge to Musalman kanṭriz (countries) me bhi aap ko sayl karayenge. Aswand me, haan, Aswand to Misr me he, Msir me, Turkey me, or saraa jaga, Iran to mera peydayiši, Hazir Imam ka xandana udhar se tha. To kaha ki aap wahan sayr kere.
Phir dusre saal dubara ham gaye. Sara jaga dekha. To us waqat Mir sahab ko Hazir Imam ne sara un ko banaya ki Cenṭral Ašia me jitney Ismayili the, un ka sadar ho jaya. Or un sab ko mere taraf se farman un ko de de. Har saal me aap aaye job hi mehina aap pasand kare. September me aaye ya Disambar me aaye. To Mir sahab ne kaha ki haan, ham aayenge, ziyadatar hamaare wahan sardi bohot hoti he. Is liye ham Dismabar me aap se milne aayenge. To hansa or kaha, aap ko pata he na, aap ka mulk sard he, or yahan se garm kapḍa or garm shoes lene ke liye aap Desambar me safar karte he. September me nahi aata he. To Mir sahab ne kaha, ney September me bhi ham aayenge. Sirf hamare mulk me September me ačha mosam hota he. Or Pakistan me garmi ziyad hoti he. Is liye Desamber or January me ham bohot čhahte he bahar mulk me safar karna. Wo hanse or famaya: “Ney kabhi Satumbar me bhi aaye or kabhi Dasumbar me bhi aaye”. Is tarah har Dasumbar me ham jaate the.
Phir us ne xud kaha ki aap Rum dekhiye. Kenṭ ke nazdik he, Iṭli me. To us ne apne sekreṭary to bejha. Or ham Iṭaly gaye. Phir Sarḍinya to aabad ney tha us waqat. Abhi mawjudha Imamm Karim Aγa Xan, ne abad kiya he, To ham ne is jaga ko bhi dekha. Phir Pirnce Ali ne bhi hame bohot sayr karaaya. Paris dekha. London to bohot daf’a gaye. Paris to har saal jate the. Wahan to ek hoṭal tha, hamare naam par. Un ka manager kehta tha, un to bohot se log aa ke is hoṭel me ṭehrte the. Magar me ne, Mir sahab ko kehta tha, ki aap ka naam likh kar yahan rakha he ki ye Mir sahab ka hoṭel he. Wo hansta tha. Kehta tha, ye hamara hoṭel to nahi ne, gormenṭ ka he. Haan, he, jab aap aate he to yahan ṭehrte he. Bohot ṭehrte the, bohot hame sayr karaya.
Phir ek dafa Hazir Imam xud Misr gaya. Ham logun ko bulaaya. Ham Misr gaye. Bas kuč ganṭe ka rasta he. Awan kehte he. Rušian waqat par. Whan Hazir Imam ne kaha ki me ne yahan pasand kiya or yahan apne liye ghar banaya. Mawjuda begume, balki abhi to fawt hogayi, Um e Habiba ke naam par. Us ne apna qabristan bhi wahan banaya. Qabristan us waqat banata raha tha.
Phir Hazir Imam (Sultan Muhammad Šah) fawt ho gaya to un ki tadfin par ghi hame bulaya giya. Hazir Imam ne apne will me likha tha ki me fawt huwa to mera jinaza jis mullk me bhi ho, wahan se mujhe Misr le jhaye, mera jinaza, or har isaili leaḍer ayenge. Or mera jinaza uṭhane ke liye, kaha tha, mera baḍha beṭa, Prince Ali Khan, to mujh se naraaz he, un ko Imamat nahi di gayi thin a, Karim to dhi thi. Beṭa ko haq tha, magar us ne ek filmi orat se šadi kiya to us ko Imamat nahi di. Us ne to pelhe Pincess Jon se šadi kiya tha. Hazir Imam (Sir Sultan Muhammad Šah) ne xud karaya tha Jon Clark ki bači thi, London me. Phir us se Hazir Imam, Karim or Amin donu peyda huyi. Phir us ke ba’d wo Amrika giya. Amrika me ja kar ek filmi akṭar (actor) se šadi ki. Jis par Imam Sultan Muhammad Šah un se naraaz ho gaya tha ki filmi ek orat se kiyo šadi kiya. Is liye, unhun ne apne will me likha tha ki mera ye Imamat Karim ko hoga, mere pote ko hoga, us ko ney goga. Isliye, Karim Aγa Xan ko hogiya na. Us waja se us ne likha tha ki mere janaze me kal bešek mera baḍa beṭa, mujh se xafa he, wo aaye ga to xuši he, ney aaya to us ki marzi. Mere jinaze par Karim Aγa Xan mera janaza uṭhaye ga. Or dusra mera beṭa, Prince Sadru Din, or piče ki tarah ek Mir sahab ka naam diya tha. Mir sahab. Or dusra un ka ek rištadar tha, Aγa Xalili, Iran ka tha, un ka Maumzad koyi rištadar tha. Wo Iran ki jama’t ki taraf se aaya tha. Or wo mera jinaza uṭhaye ga. Isliye Mir sahab giya tha. Me bhi gayi thi Mir sahab ke saath. Bhot log gaye the yahan se. Sare Misr ke log khḍe ho kar us ka intizam kiya. Pulis or dusre tamam. Puri dunya se aye the. Iran se, Kuwet se, har jaga se. Africa se, jitney bhi Ismaili the, sab jaghe se aye huwe the.
Ham Aswan me ṭehre,Mata Salamat ke ghar me kuč din. Phir us ke ba’d ham waapas Misr aaye. Misr me bhi kuč din ṭehr kar phir ham waapas aaye.
Us ke ba’d phir ye mawjuda Hazir Imam ka taxt našini huwa. Kis sana me huwa tha?
FAB: 1957 me, 11 July.
MSN: Karači me hogiya. Karači me gaye. Phir us ke ba’d Bamayi ke jama’t ne bhi hame bulaya tha. Or ham whan bhi gaye. Har jaga me. Afriqa se, saare jaghe me.
FAB: Saal me aap ke kitne ṭrips (dawre) lagte the?
MSN: Do daf’a. Ek to Sitambar me, ek Dasumbar me.
FAB: jab app jate the tho kafi mulkun me jate the?
MSN: Ji, ji, viza le ke jate the. Kiyonki Iran me, Mir sahab ka pasand tha, Iran. Kiyon ki Irani zaban wo bohot ačhi tarah janta tha. Iran me ziyad ṭehrte the. Phir Berut me, or ek da’fa Yunan, wahan bhi gaye the. Ṭurkey me bohot ṭehrt the. Jis jaga me bhi hame jana ho to, Ismali leader ko fon kiya karte the to wo xud apne karun (cars) me le kar hoṭel me ṭehra kar saara jaga hamre liye intizam karte the.
FAB: In ke ‘ilawa Yurup ke kisi or mulkun me jaate the? Germany bhi jaya karte the?
MSN: Haan, Germany me bohot dafa gaye. Germany me xaas Ismaili koyi nahi. Wahan German hi German he. Sabiq Imam ne farmaya ki sare jagun se ačha or paydar jaga Germany he, use dekhe. To phir ham Germany bhi gaye. Whan ek kapḍe ka, ḍres dekhne wala ek German tha. Wo do dafa’ šakar karne ke liye Hunza me bhi aaye the. Or us ke saath Mir sahab ka ta’luq tha. Dost tha. Us ne us ke ba’d bulaya. Phir Munix me, Frankfurt me, Colon me, or Germany ka jitna ilaqa he, wahan ham pandra (15) pandra din ṭehrte the. Us ke mehman hote the, Germany me. Abhi bhi un ke beṭe he do. Baap to mar giya he. Or ham Berlin bhi gaye.
FAB: Ačha, Berlin bhi gaye. Us waqat mera xayal he ki jab aap jaate the, to Mašriqi Germany or Maγribi Germany huwa karta tha. Aap log šayad Maγribi Germany gaye he.
MSN: Phir waapasi par ham Jeruselam dekhne bhi gaye. Jordan me. Jerosalem dekhne gaye. Wahan unhun ne kaha ki wahan se Israyil jaane ka borḍer saath he. Kaha ki aap log jaa sakte he, aap ka pasporṭ ham ne aap ko ḍiplomaṭik pasporṭ diya he. Magar aap ka ḍrayver (driver) nahi ja sakta he. Kaha, aap xud ko gaḍi čalana hoga. Phir Mir sahab ne kaha ki ham to kar (car) nahi čala sakte. Phir kaha behtar he ki ham yahan se waapas ho jaaye.
FAB: Mawjuda Imam ke dawr me, Hazir Imam ke dawr me bhi aap gaye he?
MSN: Bohot daf’a. Xas kar šadi par. Hazir Imam ke šadi par ham gaye. Un ki šadi se pehle bhi ham bohot dafa gaye the. Šadi par bhi spešal (spcial) bulaye the. Hazir Imam ki šadi bhi Paris me. Or Hazir Imam ke liye har jage se jama’t ki taraf se ačhi ačhi čize tuhfa laye the. Or Kuwet, Bahrin wahan se logun ne samandar ki motiyan laye the. Imam par phenkne ke liye. To us par jagḍa hogaya koyi. Ham xud nikah hone ke ba’d us par phenkna he. Or kiya karna he. Phir dusre jamat’ ne bhi šor kiya ki aap ne moti laya ki phenkenge. Ham ne kisi ne sona, kisi ne bartan, kisi ne ghar ka saman bhi laye he. To kis tarah phenkenge. Ye ney hoga. Hazir Imam ki ek behn he. Wo phenkenge. To Hazir Imam ne kaha, mujhe nam diya ki wo phenkengi. Phir un ki šadi hogayi wahan. Bambayi ki jama’t ne bhi apne taraf se ḍhol bajha kar naača, do tin din. Phir Iran Iran se bhi aaye the. Har jagah se Ismaili aaye the. Pakistan se bhi aaye the. Or har jagah se log bohot sare čize Hazir Imam ko laye the.
Hunza se ham ačanak gaye the. Or hamara mulk aysa he ki Hazir Imam ki xidmat me kiya he ki ham peš kare. Yahan se ziyada se ziyada čuγa or ṭopi ke bafer to kuč nahi he. To samajh me nahi aaya. Mir sahab ne mujh se kaha ki aap ke paas sone ka zewar he, wo mujhe dey de. Wo ham Senṭral Ašya (Central Asia) ki jama’t ki taraf se Imam ko peš karenge. Me jot ha, wo sab kuč de diya Mir sahab ko. Mir sahab ne ek thaali me wo peš kiya ki ye hamare Hunza ke, Northern Areas ke jamat ki taraf se tohfa he. To sab se ziyad Imam ne use pasand kiya. Kiyonki yanan ka bana huwa tha, čhoṭi čiz gale me pehnne ke liye.
FAB: Phir Imam aap logun ko kiya kehta tha, jab aap waapas loṭte the baahar ke mulkun ked ore se?
MSN: Bas, farman dete the. Kehta tha ki sukul banaaye. Koyi anpaḍ na ho jaaye. Sab qaabil hojaaye. Or ladies ka wahaan bura haal he, us ko bhi paḍhaana čahiye, qaabil hona čahiye. Or ačhi nokari mile. To is ke saath saath Mir sahab kehte the ki aspitaal ke liye bhi hamare mulk me kami he. Phir government ki taraf se ek čhoṭa sa sṭaf hota he. Us me kabhi dawayi hota, kabhi nahi hota. Log ayse mar jate he. … To bas likh ked eta tha. Aγa Majiid Xan ko kehta tha, jitna xarča he, bas peyse ke liye kare.
FAB: Aap ka kiya xayal he ki kitna phir is par, mera xayal he ki kaafi kuč amal daramad kiya hoga? Kuč skul waγerya jo banaye. Kiya kuč …
MSN: Skul ney tha us waqat laḍkiyu ke liye skul ney tha. Or Hazir Imam ka, pehle late Aγa Xan ka Diamond Jubilee huyi Bambyi me. Bambay me Diamond Jubilee huyi. Us ke ba’d tol kar ke jitna Diamond tha, us ke barabar peysa nikaal kar saara Ismaili kamuniṭi me taqsim kiya peysa. Hunza ki taraf se jitna karna tha, Mir sahb ne Qudrat ko bejha ki pure Hunza me skul ney he. Diamond Jubilee skul us waqat rakha tha. Laḍkiyun ke liye koyi skul ney tha. Us peyse par phir skul banaaya giya.
FAB: Aap ne xud kitni paḍi he?
MSN: Hamaarey zamaney me koyi kalij or skul ney thin a. Mujhe to ghar me masṭer a kar paḍhathe the.
FAB: Kon tha?
MSN: Nagar me bhi ek local tha. Koyi Arabi paḍhate the, koyi Farsi or koyi Urdu thoḍa.
FAB: Naam kaa koyi pata he aap ke ustaad ka?
MSN: Ha, mar gaya he.
FAB: Mola Dad kehte the. Hamaari zathi xalifa jeysa tha. To yahan aaya to ye hamaara ye masṭer he na, masṭer Samarqand.
FAB: Ustaad Sultan Ali?
MSN: Ha, Sultan Ali ke se paḍha. Phir koyi Angrez orate Gilgit me thi, un ko waapas jaana tha. Un ko bachun ko paḍhaane ke liye laalye. Un se bhi madad li. Phir, Mr. Mambi tha. Ghazanfar ko Mir sahb ne paḍhaane ke liye laaya tha. Or wo ab fowt huwa. Mar giya. Us ki biwi paač saal hamaarey paas rahi. Us se, us ki biwi se bhi paḍha. Bas itna guzara. Hhhh (laughter).
FAB: Bohot zabardest. Aap ne skul life to dekhi nahi he. Likin, aap ki intni jo qabilyat he, wo qabili sataayiš he.
MSN: Qabilyat skul me ney hoti he bayi. Balki kehte he na ki “Bačun ki pehli skul maan ki god he”. Or apney ghar kaa mahol, or sab ho to, wahi ṭik hota he. Skul me paḍne waale to balki batamiz, beadabd bhi hote hen. Na man bap ka izat karte hen, ne bhayi ka, ne mulk ka koyi baḍa buzurg ka izat bhi nahi karte he. Kehte he “ham paḍhe he, ham qaabil he, tum ko zaban ney aata he, ham siikh čuke he”.
FAB: Sahi baat he. Ačha, kitni zabaaney aathi he aap ko?
MSN: Bas Hunza ka jitna he, sab hahahahaha (laughter). Ṣ̌ina, or hamaare mulk ka zabaan, Hunza Nager ki zaban.
MSN: Kiya Waxi bhi aap jaante he?
MSN: Kiyo nahi. Ye to hamaare mulk ki zaban he. Or me jaanti hun, bol sakti hun. Or dusri, Čitrali bas mujhe nahi aati he. Urdu (jo ki aap ke saath ab baat kar rahi hun. Hamaare zamaane me oratu ko skul bejhna bhi ‘ayb or ‘aar samajhte the. Kehte the ki kiya karna he laḍkiyun ko paḍha ke. Wo konsi nokari karegi. Ya wo thoḍha xalifa benegi ya unhunne thoḍha imam banna he. Bas laḍke thoḍa paḍhe to ṭik he, kehte the. Ab saal be saal taraqi ho rahi he. Ab mard se ziyda ‘oratu ka ziyada šoq hogiya paḍhne ki taraf. Hamaare mulk me ye baat aam he ki ta’limyafta he, ye wo. Ye aysa bhi nahi he. Ta’limyafta to hote he, zaban sikhne ke liye ta’limyafta hote he. Likthne paḍhne me. Or jaldi jalfi bholne me bhi. Magar tahzib apne ghar ke mahol par hota he. Jab ghar me čhoṭe umr me, khana khate waqat se baḍhe hone tak maan baap or baḍhe buzurg sikhate he ki aap se baḍha he, us ki izat kare. Us ko salam kare. Or us ko ye karna he ki baḍhe ko be’izat ney karna he. To phir bas us ko dimaγ me wahi aata he. Ye paḍhaayi se nahi hota he bhayi. Ajkal kisi ‘izat waale ke paas peysa nehi hota he to wo kabhi nahi paḍhta he. Wo γarib logun ke paas peysa ho to to wo bohot ‘ala ta’lim kar sakta he. Magar tahzib ney hota he. Tahzib or baat he, ta’lim or baat he.
FAB: Jeysa ki aap ne farmaaya ki us dawr me laḍkiyun ko paḍhaana ‘ayb samjhte the ki kis tarah ta’lim de de laḍkiyun ko. To aaj is dawr me laḍkiyun ki ta’lim ko kis nazar se dekh rahe he.
MSN: Bas, ta’lim to haasil karte he ačhe nokaria karte he. Or un par farz he ki apne buzurgun ki ‘ziat kar. Apna rasm riwaj na čhoḍ de. Ek dam apna rasm riwaj ney čhoḍna to ačhi baat ney he na. Or ye ta’lim se ney hota he. Ta’lim se nokaria karna, qabilyat hota he, magar tahzib ney hota he. Tahzib to apne gar ke mahol se hota he.
FAB: Ek sawaal is hawale se app se karna čahta hun ki kiyonkin aap bačpan se le kar raani banne tak, or Mir sahab ke saath aap ne kaafi safar ki. To is safar ke dawran aap ko sab se ziyada ačha konsa safar laga?
MSN: Sab ačha laga.
FAB: Matlab konsa jaga aap ko sab se ziyada ačha laga?
MSN: Musalman ke jaghun me se mujhe Misr pasand aaya. Turkey or Misar. Baaqi dusre mulkun or jaghun me se mujhe London. Čun ki London me hamare log bohot he. Ham ko aysa mahsus ney hota he ki ham dusre jaga gaye he. Koyi dukan par bhi jaye, Hindu Musalman. Kisi jaga me bhi jaye, Hindu Musalman. Na wahan par baat karne ki taklif hoti he, apne apne mulkun ka ḍres (libas) pehn kar čalte he. Wo log ek dusre ke saath bohot muhabat karte he. Musulman he kaha to wo bhi bohot izat karte he. Bohot ačhe log he.
FAB: Mir sahab ke saath to aap ne kaafi waqat guzara. Ham dekhte he ki ek waqat aata he ki, Agrezi me ek istilah he, kehte he ki “Political Transformation” ya’ni jo (sabiqa) siyasi nizam thi, wo tabdil hogayi, (us waqat ke) Wazir e Azam, Zulifqar Ali Bhuṭu ke dawr me. Jab ye tabdili agayi to us waqat aap logun ki kiya radi amal thi? Aap logun ki xalayat or ehsasat kiya thi? Mir sahab or aap ne lizmi tor par is muzu par baat ki hogi ki kiya kuč hikmat e amali aage lena hoga? Kis tarah?
MSN: Wo logun ki baate to aap ko xud pata hoga ki wo is tarah se xoš hogaye ki ye Miri Nazam xatam ho gaya. Or jamhuriyat aagayi. Ham čun čun kar, jaga jaga se laa kar liḍer (leader) banayenge. Logun ke xayalat to aap ko xud pata he.
FAB: Logun ke xayalat to apne jage par, mere arz karne ka maqsad ye he ki aap logun ki kiya ahsasat thi, kiya xalayat thi ki wo sabiqa nazam kisi or nazam me tabdil ho gayi.
MSN: Tabdil ho gayi.
FAB: Jab tabdil ho gayi to isi nazam ke andar rehte huwe kis tarah se ziandgi guzarne ke liye kiya kuč baate huyi?
MSN: Heme koyi mahsus nahi ho gayi. Mir sahab ko bhi logun ne kaha. Balki bohot loun ne ajiib ajiib baate kiya ki aap riaysat ko marj (merge) karna čahte he, ya xud liḍer (leader) banna čahte he. Ye kare, wo kare. Mir sahab ne kaha ney ham is mulk me payda huwe he. In logun ke saath hamara jina marna he. Koyi baat nahi. Logun par ham zulm nahi karte the. Un ke baap daadu or dudu par.
Hamara saath jot ha, unhun ne bohot mahsus (feel) kiya ki merj (merge) ho giya, kiya kare. Šor u γul kiya. Mir sahab ko γusa nahi naaya. Mir sahab ne kaha, koyi baat nahi, aysa hona he. Baḍe baḍe šahun ne bhi, badšahun ke jaga par bhi jamhuriyat ho gayi. Or yahan to čhoṭa jaga tha. Ham to bhayi bahi ki tarah the. Agar logun ne aysa pasand kiya he to ṭik he. Hamara izat or log hamare saath honge. Koyi fikr nahi he.
Or Inḍia waalun ne raḍiyu par or ṬV par kaha ki un ka kiya haq he. Hunza or Nagar or Gilgit hamara tha. Ajib ajib baate kiye. Mir sahab ne kisi ko jawab nahi diya. Ham ek dusren ke saath bhayi he. Ham logun se naraaz nahi he. Baqi ilekšan (election) to aysa dowḍ he ki har panč saal ke ba’d, har tin saal ke ba’d ek khaḍa hota he. Logun ka raay leta he. Log un ko pasand karte he. Phir γusa agiya to us ko marta kar phir or baate karte he. Phir dusra ho ga. Ham to Xuda ki mehrbani se ab tak ačhe he. Logun ke saath hamara ta’luq he. Un ke jine marne, γam or xuši me ham un ke saath šarik hote aa rahe he. Aap ko bhi pata he ki kisi ki šaadi par bulaya to ham apne bhayi samjh kar un ke ghar jaate he. Kisi ka koyi mar gaya to ham bhi afsos/ta’ziyat karne ke liye jaate he. Ham thoḍa bhi mahsus nahi karte he. Ham kehte he ki log hamare he or ham un ke he. Agar wo dusra čahe to ṭik he. Hunza or bhi taraqi karega. Koyi baat nahi ne.
FAB: Hunza ki taraqi ko aaj kis nazar se dekthte he ya dekhenge pehle ke nisbat?
MSN: Pehle ke nisbat, bas kukane ban gayi he. Hoṭalen ziyada ban gayi he. ṭuriṣ̌t aa kar logun ko fayda pohonč raha he. Logun ka aana jaana bohot he, ačha he. Laḍiiyun ke liye ta’lim, skul nahi tha, skul ban gayi. Sab nokar banna čahte he, ye to bohot xuši ki baat he.
FAB: Ek baat, Madam, agar aap sigareṭ pina čahte he to aap pi le or saath saath baten ho jaye.
MSN: Ney, ney. Wo xatam ho gaya he. Me dekh rahi thi ki abhi ḍaba xaali he. (haahaha. Laughṭer).
FAB: Ye ka, reč̣ita, wuzʉmit tra dʉkon en.
MSN: Ney, ney bhayi ney. Mere paas he. Ham to pite he na. Is se šuγul hota he.
FAB: Jis tarah se ki aap ne farmaya ki yahan dukane bani he. Hoṭalen bani he. ..
MSN: Balki log kehte he ki koyi hamare liye khet na ho. Qabar ke liye bhi jaga na ho jaye. Hoṭal ho jaye. Peysa milenge. Aysi aysi xalayat he. To bas un ko rahat ho giya to hamare liye xuši he. Aage bhi sočna čahiye apne liye ki kuč arse ke bad, qabristan ke liye bhi yahan jaga nahi hoga.
FAB: Aap ne apni umar ka bohot sara bahar dekhi. To in baharun se ham abhi aap se bohot kuč siekh rahe he ki jo hamari ma’lumat me nahi thi. Hamare ilm me nahi thi. Ek sawal is hawale se he ki jis waqat ye foreign miṣ̌ion ya bahar se jo log aaya karte the agrez log yahan par, to un ke missions ke kiya kuč asraat ap Hunza par dekh rahi he?
FAB: Ji, foreigners jo aya karte the.
MSN: Foreigners to bas sayr ke liye aaya karte the.
FAB: Pehle jo aaya karte the?
MSN: Pehle wok am aate the. Jeep road nahi tha. Aana jaana nahi tha. Jahaz bhi nahi milti thi. Kabhi jahaz mili to ek do aate the. Aj kal to basa puri dunya se aate he.
FAB: Aap log un se milte the?
MSN: Un ka aana ṭik he. Jis tarah mehman ṭurisṭ aaye to logun ko fayda hota he. Γarib log apna xubani bhi bhej kar peysa kamate he. Koyi laḍkiyan kuč sine ke ba’d use un ko bhečne se peysa kamate he. Ačha he. Kisi ki zarurat ke liye dawayi bhi milti he. ṭurisṭ ka aana ṭik he. Mulk is se abad hoga. Pehle to rasta nahi tha na yahan par.
FAB: Bohot sare ṭurisṭ jab yahn aate he to is ke aap koyi manfi asrat bhi aap hamare maa’sire dekh rahi he? Yani ham yun kahe, farz kare ki ṭurisṭ ke aane ke sabab se ya pahlu ačha nahi or ye pahlu acha he. Jeysa ki aap ne abhi farmaya ki peyse to logun ko mil rahi he. Rozgar mil rahi rahi. Lekin kiya us ke bar aks bhi koyi čiz aap dekh rahi he ya nahi?
MSN: Wo yahan hamiša to nahi ṭehrte he na. Do din ke liye aate he, phir čale jaate the sayr karne ke ba’d. kiyon ki wo apne ghar se nikalte waqat, un ka jitan jaga safar karna, jitan din muxtalif jaghun me ṭehrna maqsud ho, us sab ke liye wo log pehle se peyse jama kar ke rakh ke wo aate he. Phir wo peyse xatam hone ke ba’d wo waapas čale jaate he. Koyi Guide ho to use dete he. Foṭoz nikalte he. Aate he. Bas logun ke liye fayda he, nuqsan nahi.
FAB: Mir sahab ke saath intan jo arsa aap ne guzara, un ke muta’liq agar puchna čahun, agar aap bataana pasand farmayenge. Mir sahab ki wo konsi kirdar ya konsi xubi thi jo aap ko bohot ziyada pasand thi?
MSN: Mir sahab ki ye xubi ki wo har ek se milta tha. Koyi γarib, koyi amir nahi samajhta tha. Jo bhi use mile to xoš ho kar milta tha. Or jo un logun ke paas ney ho to wo dil khol kar wo deta tha. Ye kehta tha ki wo mere paas aye. Balki log kehte the ki aap ne intni zamin kiyon diya. Ye wo kiyon kiya. Wo kehta tha ki dekhe, Xuda dene wala he. Γarib ko kisi ka muhtaj kiyon banaye. Or maaliya bhi hamra bohot tha. Koyi orat jab ati thi ki hamare upar zulm he, hamare paas ney he, to maaliya nikaalne walun se kehta that, wo maalia čhoḍo, Us se na le ley. Sab par rahm karta tha. Agar koyi bhi aapas me laḍayi ho kar aaye to us ko kehta tha ki in ke darmiyan sulah karaw. Agar sulah nahi hota tha to kehta tha ki rasm ke mutabiq unhe jurmana karaw. Magar jurmana Mir sahab kabhi nahi leta tha. Jab jurmana milta to late the to wo unhe waapas deta tha.
FAB: To ye xasiyat aap ko bohot ačhi lagti thi?
MSN: Han, bohot ačha.
FAB: Wo konsi xasiyat thi jo is ke nisbat aap ko itni ziyada ačhi nahi lagti thi?
MSN: Nahi. Ačhi lagti thi. Kabhi γusa ho giya to me keti thi ki γusa kiyon karte ho. Apne bačun se bhi kehta tha ki ye skul ki baat čhoḍo, apne mulk ke logun ke saath aap raho.
FAB: Konse skul ki baat čhoḍo?
MSN: Ye koyi bhi bača skul jaata he na, to adat dusri hoti he. Bas har ek se γusa karte he. Ya kisi ko gali dena. Kisi ko kuč kehna. Kehta tha, apne bhayun ki tarah rahe. Hamare logun ke saath aap ačha suluk kare, ye insane ke liye ačha hota he.
FAB: To, kuy wezdiya ka tra bar? Tayin kuy ko wezde? Ye jo siyasi nazam he (aaj ka), is ki kiya ačhayan or kiya xamiyan aap is dowr me dekh rahi he? Aaj ke is siyasi nazam me? Yani, mawjuda siyasi nazam me aap kiya xubi or kiya xami dekh rahi he?
MSN: Bas, is ke mutaliq me kiya kahun. Ye to ek bohot baḍi siyasat ki baat he?
FAB: Phir bhi, aap jo kuč is nazam me azma rahi he, wo hame bata dijye ga?
MSN: Ye ki Pakistan me change hota he. Saal saal me change hota he, jo ki ačha nahi he. Ek izat wala ko be-izat karte he, Upar xud laḍte he, phir us ko nikaalte he. Koyi samjh me nahi aata he.
FAB Ye kaam aap ko ačhi nahi lagti he. Ṭik. Or sabiqa nizam me, yani jo Miri Nazam thi, us ke muta’liq koyi aysi čiz jo bohot ačhi thi, or wo čiz jo ačhi nahi thi?
MSN: Miri Nizam me ye thi na ki apne mulk ki izat thi. Or jo mard orat ki laḍayi hoti thi to koyi thana nahi le jaate the. Bezat karne ke liye polis aa kar ghar ki talaši nahi leta tha. Apne qom ke saath baatčit karte the. Agar nahi banti thi to phir hamare paas aate the. Baat kiya to un ko samjhaate the. Abhi bhai bhayi se bhi laḍa to polis unhe pakaḍ kar thana le jaate he. Ya miyan biwi ka jagḍha ho giya to unhe thana le jaate he. Orate be-izat hoti he. Bas ye ṭik nahi he.
FAB: Ačha, sabia dowr me, hamari taarix me, ek aysi čiz samne aati he, kuč aap ko to malum gogi, garči is dawr me to nahi huyi he, lekin Mir Nazim Xan ke dawr se pehle ki baat he, ki yahan par jo karawan čalti thi, un par čhapa lagaya jata tha, un ko luṭi jati thi. Yahan tak ki kete he ki logun ko le ja kar beč kar kuč or čiz un ke badle me laya karte the. Ye kiya baat thi?
MSN: Ney, ney,ney, ye to nahi karte the.
FAB: Mir Nazim Xan se pehle ki baat he.
MSN: Wo pehle zamane ka mujhe pata nahi he. Hamare waqat me to aysa nahi hota tha. Gilgit ke liye, un ke liye ijazt nahi thi.
FAB: Kiyon nahi thi?
MSN: Pata nahi. Hukumat ki taraf se. Wo Angrezun kii humat thi ya Maharaja ki hukumat thi. Giglit tak jane ki ijazat nahi thi. Kiyon ki wo kehte the na ki Čayna (China) se jasus honge keh kar. Un ko Hunza tak ijazat thi.
FAB: Hamare logun ko?
MSN: Wahan se, Čayna se jo karawan aati thi. Yahan ek mehina, do mehina ṭehr kar, unṭ par apne samaan le kar yahan se logun ko bečte the. Phir yahan se waapas jaate the. Un ko ijazat nahi thi Pakistan banne ke ba’d.
FAB Jab Mir marhum bemar the yahan par, to us waqat aap ki kiya ahsasat thi? Koyi aysi bat jo ki sṭeṭ (state) ke muta’liq hun or aap se is babat koyi tabadila xayal kiya ho? Kuč aap ko yaad he?
MSN: Ney. Bas wo to šugar ka diabetes) tha. Wo ṭik ho gaya tha. Phir taklif kabhi kabhi hoti thi. Parhez bhi karta tha.
Šikar ka šoq tha. Jab sardiyun ka mosam ata, to bohot xoš hota tha. Is liye November se December tak Gulmit me šikar karne jaana or aage marxor maarne ke liye xunjerab tak jaana. Is tarah ka bohot šoqin tha, Mir sahab. Bas wo xas kuč nahi kehta tha. Wo kehta tha ki mere waja se logun ko izat he. Bešek, ham kuč de nahi sakte, magar izat to he. Mere na hone ke waqat hamare logun ko pata hoga ki sab se pehle hamare xawatin bezat honge.
Ek dafa Amatabad waalun ne gormenṭ se kuč peysa manga, paani ken aye kul banana ke liye. Gormenṭ ne wa’da kar kar ke payse nahi diya. Phir wahan kamišaner (Commisioner) koyi aaya to us ko pakaḍ kar bezat kiya. Log aa kar, jo mayining (mining) ka jaga he, Saraṭ ke is taraf. Phir γuse me, us ne wahan se polis bejha ki sab ko pakaḍ kar jel bejhna he. Ahamadbad se un longun ko law, polis waalun ko hokum diya. Is waqat, Mir sahab xud kaḍa hogiy or kaha, meri zindagi me mere logun ko pakaḍ kar thana nahi le ja sakte ho. Me un ko saza de dun ga. Is par unhun ne kaha ki gormenṭ ke saath aap muxalifat karta he. Mir sahab ne kaha, nahi, hukumat ke saath koyi muxalifat nahi. Magar yaad rakhe, hamare logun ne Gilgit-Baltitan banaya he. Or jitney log mar gaye he, Činar Baγ me sab se pehle jitna maqbara he, Hunza walun ka he. To ham muxalifat anhi karte he. Magar meri zindagi me mere logun ko pakaḍ kar beguna or gunagar ab ko pakaḍ kar. Agar ek do ne gormenṭ ke jep par pathar maara he to wo aap ko pata nahi he. Un ke jaga par dusre logun ko bezat kar rahe ho? Or γarib admi ko pakaḍ kar le jaana, me kabhi unhe aap ko anhi dunga. Phir unhe wapas kiya, or un logun ko unhen nahi de diya.
Murtazabad me bhi ye roḍ (road) banate the, China Road banate waqat, Pakistan ke bhi saath the log. Ek aadmi tha, Ejaza ya kuč aysa naam tha, koyi karnal (colonel). Us ke bere ko kisi dusre ne maara. To us ne šek kiya ki Murtazabad walun ne mara he. Wahan ke laḍkiyun ki taraf dektha tha, hans kar. Γuse me logun ne use mara. Unhun ne kisi se pučhe baγer ja kar gharun par hamla kiya. Or logun ko pakaḍ kar laaya. Or oratun ke sandoq ko khol kar apni kartusun ko čhupaya. Grenaḍe aap ne čhupaya keh kar bohot bizati kiya Murtazabad me. Ye 104 Baṭaliion tha.
Is par Mir sahab ne ek dam fun kiya udhar kamanḍar in čief (Commander-in-Chief) ko. Forwan, ek din bhi unhe nahi rakha 104 batallion ko or unhe Hunza se nikala. Hamare logun par hamala kiya he, oratu ke ghar jaa kar. Agar in ko nahi nikala to government xafa ney ho. Hamare log hamal kar ke ek din me un ko xatam karenge. Jab ye kaha, Mir sahab ne, to ek dam unhe nikala wahan se. Mir sahab kehta tha ki me ne zindagi me eysa eysa kaam kiya he.
Or ek orat ko koyi badnami kar ke kisi sipahi, Hyderabad kit hi, ko mara he keh kar us orat ko pakaḍ kar le jaane ke liye polis wale aye. Mir sahab ne us un ko nahi diya. Hamare mawjudigi me hamare mulk me adaalat hogi. Ye polis thana me ham oratun ko nahi bejhe sakte. Wo aysa baat karta tha, Mir sahab, ki me ne ye kiya, wo kiya. Mere na hone ke ba’d phir logun ko pata hoga. Miyan biwi ko bezat kar ke thana le jaate he. Taswire nikaalte he or maarte he.
FAB: Ačha, un axiri ayyaam me, jab Mir sahab ki rahlat ho rahi thi, kiya huwa jo waqat aap ne Mir sahab ke saath guzar diya.
MSN: Wo baate jo logun ko sikhaya giya tha ki har ek ko rahat hoga. Har ek Mir ban jayenge or Miri Nazam xatam ho jaye, or ye karo, wo karo, keh kar aysi aysi baate kiya. Gormenṭ ne Mir sahab e pučha ki ap to log darxasat karte he ki Miri Nazam merj (merge) ho jaye, Pakistan čhoṭa mulk he, us ke saath. Alag alag sṭeṭ ačha nahi hota he. Ye karo, wo karo.
FAB: Ye kiya baat thi ki log jo he is ka ḍimanḍ kar rahe the?
MSN: Pata ney, bas logun ko sikhate he na. apne aapas me baγawat kiya to phir kiya kiya ja sakta.
FAB Aap ke xayal me is tarah koyi baat thi jo ki Royal Family ki taraf e ya matlab Miri Nazam ki taraf se koyi thi?
MSN: Pata ney, us ko kaha ki aap bholo, Miri Nazam xatam ho jaye. Aap sab ko rahat hoga, ye hoga, wo hoga.
FAB: Logun ne kaha?
MSN: Logun ne. Logu ne darxaste diay. Phir Mir sahab ko pučha gaya ki Mir sahab! Aap agar čahte he, aap ko Minisṭer banayenge. Mir sahab ne kaha ki mujhe na Minisṭer ki zarurat he, na mujhe Viceroy banana ki zarurat he. Apne mulk me hun. Agar hazar saal se mere abaw ajdad ne Hunza me hukumat ki he, koyi Mir ban gaye he. Abhi agar gormenṭ čahta he or log yahan nahi čahte he to xuši ki baat he, aap mere jaga governor rakhe. Me apne mulk me, apne ghar me hun. Phir inkaar kiya.
FAB: Ačha, phir jab ham sṭeṭ ko, ek lihaaz se dekthe he, jeysa ki Swat me Sṭeṭ thi, to us waqat jo Wali e Swat, unhun ne itni jaldi se Pakistan ke saath us ko merge nahi kiya. Unhun ne baqayida šarayat rakhi. Idhar/yahan koyi šarayat nahi rakha gaya?
MSN: Us ka to pura nahi tha na. Hamara to zati tha. Yahan par to hazaar saal se logun ne laa kar Mir banaye the. Yahan logu ne pasand kar ke xud apne aap ko maaliya de kar is sṭeṭ ko banya tha. Swat me that ki liḍer tha. Ek dusre ko maar maar kar, jis tarah elekšan me ek admi khaḍa ho jaata he, is liye saw (100) saal tak, ya 150 saal tak. Un par zulm bhi bohot tha na. koyi bhi laḍayi kiya to samne phansi lagate the Swat me. Abhi tak un ke jangal me ek xaas daraxt he, wahan par logu ko samne phansi lagate he. Itna zulm karte the. Hamare yahan to aysa nahi kiya he. Purane zamane me suna he ki ye karte the.
FAB: Han, puraane zamane me kehte he Baltit forṭ me us ke niče jo wo he,
MSN: Niče jo tehxane bana kar us me, or purane zamane me, hazaar saal pehle se Hunza or Nagar me laḍayi hoti thi na. wahan se log yahan hamala kar ke wahan le jaate the. Yahan se log wahan luṭmaari kar ke yahan laate the. Bas yahi baat thi.
FAB: Mere kehne ka maqsad he ki Pakistan ke saath jab ek sṭeṭ xatam hoti he, to kam az kam ek šart to rakte he ki bhayi ye ye čize mujhe, ye sahuliyat de dey, tab mera ye sṭeṭ xatam ho. Warna me aysa nahi karta.
MSN: Bas ačanak aysa ho giya, Buṭu ke zamane me.
FAB: Last time par jab Mir marhum wafaat kar rahe the, to aap ki kiya ahsasat thi, kiya mahsusaat thi ki itne arse aap ikhṭe rahe, or axirkar Mir se judayi hoti he?
MSN: Jis tarah hota he na, Mian ho to zarur hota he biwi ko mahsus to hota he. Axir bače bhi the. Mir sahab ne apni zindagi me alag alag un ke naam par sab kuč likh kar diya tha. Ye mere beṭe he. Baaqi laḍiyun ke liye hamare rasm u riwaj ke mutabiq us zamaane se nahi tha ki laḍiyun ko bhi zamin dena or ghar dena. Agar hota to un ko bhi de dete. Bas tin beṭe the, un ko alag kar ke de diya.
FAB: Matlab aap pe kiya guzar gayi, un ke yahan dunya me na hone ka? Un ki γer mawjudigi ka? Abhi tak kiya aap un ki γer mawjudgi ko mahsus karte he?
MSN: Kiyo nahi karti hun. Magar kiya kare. Baaqi, mere bače he. Me to un se kehti hun ki aapasme ṭik tarah se raho. Bas ek dusre ko izat karo. Bas dunya me yahi he. Izat karna or ek dusre se muhabat karna.
FAB: Aap log Baltit forṭ me bhi rahe honge ya nahi?
MSN: Nahi. Meri šaadi se pehle use čhoḍ diya giya tha.
FAB: Altit forṭ waγera?
MSN: Wo to bohot puraana he.
FAB: Yahan Gulmit me?
MSN: Sardiyun me ham Gulmit me raha karte the. Šikar ke bohot šoqin the, Mir sahab. Wo November se šuru karta tha apna kartuše, bandoqe waγera band karna, šikar ke liye. Ham kehte the ki ek mehina awṭ he, mosam ačha hota tha. Wo kehta tha ki šikar ke liye me itna badoqe laya hun, kiya wo band kar ke rakhun ga? Is tarah wo šikar ke liye jaata tha. Wo xoš hoto tha šikar khelne se.
FAB: Jab me čhoṭa tha, mujhe yaad he me aap ko ek dafa dekha tha. Us ke ba’d us din jo me aya tha aap se pučhne ke liye ki agar aap inṭerview dena čahte he. Or aaj ye tisri martaba aap se mil raha hun.
MSN: Acha, čha, čha.
FAB: To in donun jaghun me se kon sa jagah app ko ziyada ačha laga? Ek to Gulmit me aap logun ki wo mahal he, or ek to idhar, kher ye to bohot baḍi he. Lekin phir bhi aap kis tarah se in jaghun ko dekhenge?
MSN: Mir sahab ko yahan logun me se Gojal ke logun se bohot xoš hota tha. Wo bohot izat karte the, bičare log. To un sab ka naam bhi Mir sahab ko yaad tha. Agar koyi nahi aata tha, to wo pučhta tha ki us ko kiya huwa he? Kiya koyi taklif to nahi he? Is tarah se tha. Hunza me bhi Mir sahab me bhi, garči ye gawa se alag tha, log milne ke liye aate jaate the. Magar Gulmit se to saath hote the. Kabhi jaate the Γulkin me pač din ṭehrte the. Kabhi Husani waale bulaate the, to wahan bhi jaate the. Mir sahab kehta tha ki me har ek gawu me aawunga. Kiya aap ne ek ek, do do kamre banaye he, ham aayenge, to wo foran banate the. Kabhi Murxun me ja kar ṭehrte the. Kabhi Xaybar me bhi. Pasu me bhi ṭehrte the. Wahan to ham Odob waalun ke ghar me ṭehrte the.
FAB: Sahi baat he. Wahan aap ko to yaad hoga. Kehte he ki Dadu Odob Xon ne baγawat kit hi, jis ke ghar me ṭehrne ki aap baat kar rahe he. Ye kiya baat thi ki unhun ne baγawat ki thi Miri Nazam ke xilaf or logun ko le gaye or Misgar tak gaye? Phir yahan se Karnel (Colonel) Ayaš Xan Marhum gaye un ko waapas laane ke liye?
MSN: Wo mere xayal me ye baγawat Mir sahab ke xilaf nahi thi. Bas ye log maaliya laane ke liye yahan se log yani trangpa bejhte the na Hunza se, to un logun ne kuč gaḍbaḍ kar ke ziyada maliya liya to wo log kehte the ki Hunza waale na ho, ham Gojal waale xud jo arbab banegne, to is par ye waqiya peš aaya. Mir sahab se to bohot xoš the.
FAB: To koyi ṭex mex ka čakar tha.
MSN: Ney, ṭex nahi tha, matlab apne maliya ka ki jo un se lete the. Wo trangpa log čupa kar xud khate the or yahan ney dete the. Jab un ko pata huwa to is par ye jagḍa huwa. Baqi wo bohot xoš the Mir sahab se.
FAB: Bobo Γundi bhi aap jaya karte the?
MSN: Bobo Γundi to Mir sahab ne ṭik karaya na. pehle xarab tha. Or ham har saal jate the.
FAB: Kiya aap logun ki Bobo Γundi par koyi ‘aqida thi? Agar thi to kitni ‘aqida thi?
MSN: Kehte he na ki ye Imam Muhammad Baqir ki ziyarat he. Is liye bas ham jate the Bobo Γundi me, or do din wahan ṭehrte the. Wahan Xuda ke naam par niyaz, koyi bakra zabah karte the. Saare log aa kar du’a karte the.
FAB: Koyi aysa waqi’a ya mu’jiza jo Bobo Γundi ke mutaliq hun. Yan aap ne koyi niyat kar ke gayi or wo puri hogayi?
MSN: Ji ji, aysa hogaya. Ye mera baḍa beṭa, Γazanfar peyda hone se pehle me gayi thi. Wahan du’a kiya, or logun ne bhi du’a kiya. Phir aa kar Γazanfar peyda hogiya.
FAB: Šaadi ke kitne saal ba’d Γazanfar sahab peyda huwa?
MSN: Šaadi se kaafi saal ba’d peyda huwa. Laḍiyan peyda huwe the, do laḍiyan us se pehle. Phir jaa kar du’a kiya. Or beṭa peyda huwa. Phir dusra beṭa, jab me ne yaqin kiya, jaa kar du’a kiya, phir dusra beṭa Prince Amin, or tisra beṭa bhi peyda huwa, Prince Abbas.
FAB: Kiya Mir sahab ka bhi Bobo Γundi par kaafi ‘aqida tha?
MSN: Bohot, or ham sab ka.
FAB: Koyi mu’jiza aap ne suna he in ke ‘ilawa?
MSN: Ney, mujhe pata nahi he, nahi bata sakti hun. Lekin hame us par bohot yaqin he. Bohot baḍi ziyarat he.
FAB: Farz karte he ki abhi phir hukumat, hukumat e Pakistan Hunza ke sṭeṭ (state) ko dubara bahaal karne ka fesla karti he. Or log aap se darxast karte he ki aap dubara Raani bane. To kiya aap ise qabul karenge?
MSN: aysa nahi hoga bhayi?
FAB: Ney, farz kare ki ye bahal hogiya?
MSN: To phir ṭhik he.
FAB: Ho jayenge Raani?
MSN: Ji, heheheh (laughter). Phir to ham ne logun ke upar maliya nahi ḍalna he na. Bas aysa hoga ki log kenenge ki hamara Mir he, or ham kehenge ki hamare log he. Has yahi baat he. Baqi ham to na logun ko maliya dene ko kehenge, na wo log ham ko denge. Bas bataanyenge ki gormenṭ se ham peyse laayenge or kehenge ki ye skul banaw, ye banaw, wo baanaw. Weysa to ye nahi hoga. Ye namumkin baat he.
FAB: Bohot ačhi baat he ki ap tak aap me ek azmi samim he ki dubara aap Raani banne ke liye tayar he. Mašallah.
MSN: Baqi he na, he ab bhi Γazanfar he. Agar logun ko aqal or hoš he to aysa karenge. Ab ham logun ke saath he, log hamare saath he. Or ham un ko, wo naya naya liḍer (leader) ban gaye he. Government ke paas ham bhi jaate he jo kam ho, ham karte he. Hazir Imam ke paas ja kar kuč kehna he to ham bhi kehte he. Agar log samjhe to yahi baat he.
Sirf elekšen (election) ke din me xa muxha, kisi ko čahiye to us ko voṭ dena čahiye. Kisi ko bataana nahi he. Bilkul, logun ko wo nišanat bataya jaata he na, Pehle pučna čahiye kis ka he, kis ka ney he. Box ke andar ḍalte he he na, kisi ko nahi dikhana čahiye. Jis kisi ko pasand kiya to us ko voṭ ḍalna čahiye. Kiya zarurat he bahar kisi ko gaalie dena or julus nikaalna. Phir do saal ke ba’d šarminda ho kar … heheheheh (laughter).
FAB: Sahi baat he (hahahaha).
MSN: Phir kehte he kiya kare logun ne ham ko aysa sikhaya. Falana ne ham ko peysa diya tha. Logun ki marzi he, jis ko bhi voṭ ḍalna čahte he, un ko ḍale. Ziyada pučne ki kiya zarurat he ki ham is ko de dey ya us ko de de. Ačha ham aap ko ziyad voṭ denge, aap hame peysa de dey. Ye gandi baat he. Ji ko pasand kiya to us ko de voṭ ḍale, jis ko pasand nahi karte to na ḍale.
FAB: Aap ki umar Mašallah 75 saal se upar he, Inšallah or kaafi saal guzaarenge. Pehle ki nisbat ab aap ki zindagi kis tarah se guzar rahi he? Ek taraf to wo siyaasi nazam tabdil hogayi. Dusri taraf Mir sahab is dunya se čal base. To in waqiyat ke ba’d, aap ki zindagi kis tarah se guzar rahi he?
MSN: Bas ačha he. Ačhe log hamare saath us waqat bhi the or ab bhi he. Log us waqat bar xilaf us waqat to nahi the, abhi barxilaf ho gaye to ham parwa nahi karte he. Dunya khuli he. Jahan par bhi ham jaye, rah sakte he. Apne mulk čhoḍ kar bahar dusre mulk me apne baal bačun ke saath bhi zindagi guzaar sakte he. Ye logun ki marzi he. Hamare liye to koyi farx nahi paḍ rahi he.
FAB: Matlab, ab log aap se milne aate he to aap ko xuši hoti he?
MSN: Bilkul xuši hoti he. Din raat xali nahi he. Koyi raat ko bhi aate he. Kisi ko zarurat ho to ṭelefun karne bhi aate he ki falan jaga ṭelifun karna, aap merbaani kar ke hamare liye ṭelifon kare, agar ham niče exčenj (exchange) jate he to ham se peyse lete he. Falan šaxs hamara bemar he to ḍaktar ke paas jaate he to wo kehte he ki falan klinik (clinic) jaw to klinik ke liye hamre paas peysa nahi he, to ham koyi parwa nahi karte he or un ki madad karte he. Phir orešen (operation) ke liye bhi ki falan ḍokṭar se safari kare ki falana ka oprešen he or wo peysa na le ley. Matlabi aysi baate he.
FAB: Yani app ke šuγl or masrufiyat yahi hoti he?
MSN: Bas yahi he.
FAB: Mašallah, mašallah. Yani ye ke aap ek behtarin samaaji karkun ki hasiyat se ap kaak karte he. Bohot zabardast. Bohot baḍi baat he is tarah se kaam karna.
FAB: Royal family ke saath, xususan Mir marhum ke saath aap ne apni ta’luqat ka bataya ki bohot hi ačhi rahi he or un ka aap ke saath bhi. Un ke illawa Karnel Ayaš Xan ke saath aap ka kiya xayal he, aap ke saath kaysi taluqat thi? Ya dusre logun se?
MSN: Hamare saath to wo bohot ačha tha. Wo to aap ka mamun he, app ko xud pata he. Us ne šaadi nahi kiya. Tamam zindagi us ne Mir sahab ke saath xidmat karta tha sekreṭary ban kar. Or kabhi us ka γusa bohot aata tha. Kisi ko marta tha, kisi ko gaali deta tha. Mir sahab us ko ḍanṭta tha. “Ayaš Xan, ye kiya karta he tu?” Wo kehta tha “Čhoḍo! Aap ḍarte ho”. Mir sahab kehta tha “ha, me ḍarta hun”. Wo ḍanṭta tha. Kisi ko gaali deta tha. Kisi ko marta tha or γusa hota tha. Mere saath to bohot ačha tha.
FAB: Un ke ilawa Jamšid sahab ke saath aap ki kaysi taluqat thi?
MSN: Wo yahan nahi hota tha na, ziyada tar foj me tha. Bahar rehta tha. Phir axir me apne biwi bačun se bhi juda ho kar bahar raha. Axir me wo bemar huwa or yahan fowt huwa.
FAB: Aap ke xayaal me Royal family ki oratun ko dusri oratun, xususan wo jo kamzor, mazur or hajatmand he, to in royal family ke xawatin ko un ki falah or bahbud ke liye kiya kaam karna čahiye? Kiya kirdar hona čahiye hajatmand xanwatin ke ma’yar e zindagi ko behtar banana ke liye?
MSN: Matlab ye ki hamri orate, kiya baat aap keh rahe he?
FAB: Kiya hajatmand/zaruratmand xawatin ki ma’yare zindagi ko behtar banana ke liye aap royal family ki xawatin ki xidmat un ko darker he?
MSN: Kiyo nahi. Hame un ki madad karni čahiye. Agar kisi ko dawayi ko agar dawayi ki zarurat ho ya or kuč ho to jo ham se ho sake to hame madad karni čahiye. Agar nahi ho saki to wo alag baat he.
FAB: Aap ne kabhi kisi idare ko kuč atiya to zarur diye honge?
MSN: Kis čiz ke liye?
FAB: Koyi bhi atiya kisi bhi samajhi idrare ko ki aap ka naam rahe. Agar nahi diya he to aap ka kiya xayal he ki aap aysa karenge ki koyi bhi idra jo ki xawatin ke liye kam karte hun ta ki aap ka naam zinda rahe?
MSN: Kiyo nahi, bas jo he sake to dete he, madad karte he čhoṭe čhoṭe kaam. Agar nahi ho to phir majburi he.
FAB: Nagar ki ek beṭi ki hasiyat se or Hunza ki Raani ki hasiiyat se aap Nagar or Hunza ke tamam logun ko or bilxusus oratun ko kiya peyγaam dena pasand farmayenge?
MS: Bas logun se me ye kahungi. Pehli baat ye ki ačhi or qaabil bane. Ho sake to ta’lim hasil kare. Itifaq se rahe. Apne mulk ka rasm u riwaj na čhoḍe. Agar wo sunna čahte he to ačhi baat he, ney to un ki marzi. Aksar kehte he ki wo purana zamana tha or wo purane zamane par čalte he. Ap naya zamana he.
FAB: Ye aap ne bohot baḍa peyγam de diya, xususn apne rams u riwaj na čhoḍne ke hawale se jo ki har jaga har qom me hota he.
FAB: Ek do sawal or, agar batana pasand farmayenge. Mazhabi hawale se aap ka aqida kiya ki he ya kiya ho sakta he?
MSN: Mazhab ke hawale se kiya. Bas Musalman he na. ham sab Musalman he.
FAB: Phir bhi, maslakun me jab ham ja ke dekhte he? Aap ne Imamun ko bhi dekha, His Highneṣ̌ IV ko, or Imam Sir Sultan Muhammad Šah ko bhi dekha. To aap ek murid ki hasiyat se un se milte the ya phir kiya tha?
MSN: Baat ye he na ki mujhe kuč aysi baat nahi kahi gayi mere šaadi ke waqat bhi mere walidayn ki taraf se bhi ki ham Šia he or aap wahan Hunza ja kar Ismaili na bane. Or yahan Hunza me bhi kisi ne mujh se ye nahi kaha ki aap Šia he or Ismaili na bane. Me xud Aγa Xan ko Hazir Imam kehti hun or us ke paas jaati hun. Or jis tarah us ka izat karna he, wo bhi me karti hun. Or me Ismaili ke jamaatxane me bhi jaati hun, bulaya to. Or izat karti hun Ismaiilun ka. Baaqi namaz me paḍti hun. Roza rakhti hun. Agar koyi taklif ho to roza bhi nahi rakhti hun. To bas Musalman ek he. To bas kisi ne La Illaha Illallah, Muahammad ur Rasulullah kaha to wo Musalman he. Baqi Suni kiya kahe, ba’z Šiya kiya kahe, us se kiya fayda. Aapas me jagḍa karte he. Musalman ek he.
FAB: Bilkul sahi baat he. Ab šayad ye axiri sawal ho. Mir Γazanfar ne jis tarah se šaadi ki bahar. Or mazi is tarah se šaadi ho rahi he to aap ka kiya xayal he aysi šaadiyan apne muk se bahar karna ačhi baat he ya ačhi nahi he?
MSN: Bas ye hota he is tarah. Ham ne Γazanfar ko paḍhne ke liye wahan bejha gaiya tha. Phir us ne bas pasand kar ke šaadi ki. Ham ne bohot roka or ek waqat tak kaha ki ṭik he bahar ki laḍki hamari baho nahi hogi yahan. Lekin us ne šaadi ki. Bas ab kiya kare.
FAB: Us ke ilawa, matlab ye ki Salim ne bhi bahar se šaadi ki or mazid is tarah se … kiya ye sahi he? Abhi aap rasm u riwaj or kalčar (culture) ki baat kar rahe the?
MSN: Bas wo Salim Xan ne kiya šaadi. Us waqat mujh se pučha to me ne kaha ki ṭik he agar is laḍke ki maan zabardasti apne batijhi ke saath šaadi kara rahi he to ṭik he. Magar do or beṭe he, wo hamare mulk me hamare xandan se un ki šaadi honi čahiye. Agar unhun ne bhi bahar šaadi ki to phir aap logun ki marzi. Us waqat phir ham kuč nahi kahenge. Lekin unhun ne pasand kar ke šaadi ki, to ṭik he.
FAB: Aap ki bahot bahot nawaziš ki aap ne hem itna waqat diya, or ham ne aap ko bahot taklif di.
MSN: Aap ka bhi bahot šukarya.